What's that they say about hindsight? Sometimes we're fortunate to see red flags in real time. But, most times it takes a while. And, even then we can still be left wondering what happened. Or, whose version of events were "right." Then, throw in the question of intentions (known and unknown) and it's easy to give up on the prospect of ever really understanding the meaning of a given situation.
But here at Proofing Stage, we never give up. We're trying to put past business experiences into context and bring what learnings there are forward for us, and for you, dear listener.
This week we continue the conversation about systems by focusing on gatekeepers and "mentorship." What options are there for growth when you're just starting out, and does true collaboration really exist? We uncover who gets asked what kinds of questions (prevention over promotion, much?) and debate the merits of food halls as amenities that are the brain child of development companies versus viable stepping stones for budding business to launch into prime time.
Joan, Amanda and Michelle are a little punchy this week, and talkin':
CW: Adult language
Theme music by Thorn Haze
Additional music by rain_of_thrones (via Pixabay)
Artwork by Lisa Orye
Find more at proofingstage.com
Follow us on Instagram and Threads @proofingstage
See Buzzsprout's Privacy Policy for listener privacy and read our disclaimer here.
What's that they say about hindsight? Sometimes we're fortunate to see red flags in real time. But, most times it takes a while. And, even then we can still be left wondering what happened. Or, whose version of events were "right." Then, throw in the question of intentions (known and unknown) and it's easy to give up on the prospect of ever really understanding the meaning of a given situation.
But here at Proofing Stage, we never give up. We're trying to put past business experiences into context and bring what learnings there are forward for us, and for you, dear listener.
This week we continue the conversation about systems by focusing on gatekeepers and "mentorship." What options are there for growth when you're just starting out, and does true collaboration really exist? We uncover who gets asked what kinds of questions (prevention over promotion, much?) and debate the merits of food halls as amenities that are the brain child of development companies versus viable stepping stones for budding business to launch into prime time.
Joan, Amanda and Michelle are a little punchy this week, and talkin':
CW: Adult language
Theme music by Thorn Haze
Additional music by rain_of_thrones (via Pixabay)
Artwork by Lisa Orye
Find more at proofingstage.com
Follow us on Instagram and Threads @proofingstage
See Buzzsprout's Privacy Policy for listener privacy and read our disclaimer here.
Amanda 00:06
I only manifest the shit that I make. I mean, explain that to me please.
Joan 00:10
I tell myself to make the thing I've just manifested. It's like okay…
Amanda
…and it didn't manifest.
Michelle 00:15
I know.
Joan: 00:20
I don’t think you manifested it, you “manicottied” it. I don’t think it’s a manifest.
Amanda 00:20
Ooo… Manicotti is delicious.
Michelle 00:23
[mah-nah-got], [mah-nah-got].
Joan 00:25
[mah-nah-got], [mah-nah-got]
Joan
No one says that if they’re actually from Italy.
Michelle
My people say that.
Joan
Tu gente. La raza.
Amanda 00:29
I mean, wildly enough, my people say it because my mother grew up in the Lower East Side and then moved to Long Island. So, we have this really weird like… [rig-ott] was always [rig-ott] and then like, but you're like it's just ‘cause we knew. But yeah, it's, you know, but on Long Island it's ricotta because, you know…
Joan 00:48
People who are actually from Italy, which is not… They're actually Eye-talian. I do say Eye-talian; also admitting that.
Amanda 00:55
But it's wild, ‘cause I'm not Italian, right? It was just my mom knew, oh yeah, and my grandmother knew. So, the beauty of New York, the beauty of the onion I refuse to say melting pot.
Joan
Yeah, fuck that.
Michelle
Yeah.
Joan 01:08
Even from Jersey. I feel like I'm somehow culturally like Eye-talian. I'm just like how the fuck did I learn these things? Like I shouldn't be saying like [mah-roan], like I shouldn't be saying that.
Amanda
Yeah. Ha.
Amanda 01:16
I'm culturally Jewish, ‘cause I grew up along the Island, so that's you know and culturally Catholic, which is also really strange, cause I am neither of those things. So, yep, we're all where we come from.
Amanda 01:30
Does your hat say “No one likes us”?
Joan 01:31
Yeah it's, “No one likes us.”
Amanda
Yikes.
Joan:
And in the back says “We don't care.”
Michelle 01:36
Oh, it's, it's the Eagles, it's with the Eagles.
Amanda 01:43
Oh, oh, oh.
Joan
[singing] Philly, fucking Philly.
Amanda
There's, there's, there's, there's the, there's the Eagles, yeah, anyway…
Amanda 01:49
The number one joke amongst people who have known me for long periods of time and have had long conversations with me is no, I haven't seen them.
Michelle 01:56
Yeah, me too. For what it's worth.
Joan
“No, I haven't seen it.”
Michelle 02:00
Like any movie that you would probably name right now. I've probably never seen.
Amanda
Like Godfather?
Michelle
Never seen it.
Amanda
Never seen it.
Amanda 02:08
Yeah.
Michelle
That's so funny.
Joan
I wanna see you guys try topping each other. That would be amazing.
Amanda 02:14
We'll do it. We'll do it another time. There'll be a competition.
Joan 02:19
It's a good time to be, it's always a good time to be, a nepooooo bay-beeee.
Amanda 02:26
Oh, you're going to sing this, go for it. I have to hear you sing it.
Joan
Oh, am I doing? Okay.
Amanda
Yeah, hey.
Joan 02:33
What? I was just saying, that it's a good time to be a [starts singing] nepo baby. They make their own dreams come true… [stops singing] Actually. Well, you know, they kind of have help.
Michelle02:46
Did they manifest it?
Joan
Oh my God.
Joan 02:49
And that's it. That's episode four. Thanks guys.
Michelle
And that's a wrap. Done.
Amanda 02:57
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own. The pod also contains explicit language and occasional references to mature content and themes. To review our full notice and disclaimer, please visit our website at proofingstagedotcom.
Amanda
I'm Amanda Schwarz.
Joan
I'm Joan Kanner.
Michelle
I'm Michelle Bond.
Amanda
And this is Proofing Stage.
You know you can't help being a nepo baby.
Joan 03:32
Bbut yeah and there's some great ones, but there are some who are not. We're going to talk to you today about some things, including the myth of the meritocracy, when we begin our many chapters on systems, gatekeepers and kingmakers.
Michelle
It's a working title.
Amanda 03:47
Kind of like the three kings, you know, because we're hitting epiphany at this point, like we're, you know, 12 days after Christmas, the new gift of the fourth episode.
Michelle 03:56
That's true actually. Yeah, look at that. We couldn't have planned that better.
Joan 03:59
I mean, there are many wise men that we've encountered who we've already talked about, and you know, and this is I'm going to- move on to it.
Amanda
[laughing]
Michelle 04:06
We need Amanda. Hold up. We need to make sure Amanda's with us.
Joan 04:08
So, transitioning to systems, gatekeepers and kingmakers part un. And I wanted to start this episode by talking about mentorship, which we have not covered in the episodes that we have released and it's going to bring us… let’s dive right in. And we had a mentor as an early stage food business who I no longer am in contact with. And I remember when we were at we were only in year two of the business and she went to put us in touch with a guy who had a pizza biz and he had family money and he wanted to start a bagel business. I want to pause and just say like we had taken some of her classes about just some macro-level food system, food business stuff and there weren't that many helpful voices, right, there weren't that many helpful like kitchens for us to use, right, there also weren't many helpful voices and I know I didn't have any mentorship in that area or you know, family or anybody or a degree in some sort of like food business related thing.
Michelle 05:23
When we talk about gatekeepers, these are, like you know, when I learned, I learned first about gatekeepers in the Peace Corps when we were talking about, like on an informal level, kind of community people that people see as community leaders, that are not necessarily sanctioned. Right, they may not be the chief, they may not be the teacher - I mean the principal - but they are people who you need to get access to because they have access to everything else. They have the ear of the person in charge, they have the ear of the person with resources, but anyone in community development will tell you that it's not just necessarily the obvious people, right, it's not based on title, it's not based on history necessarily. You really need to get to know a place and get to know a people to find out who those people are. That said, there are also people who kind of take on that role like more so in this conversation. A lot of what we're talking about are people who kind of see themselves as an influencer in some way, not necessarily in a like a social media fashion, but in a person where “I know people.” Right? I can. They're not saying this or in some cases, they are saying this, but their actions are pointing in that direction. So it's like: “I know the stuff, I know the people, I can help you.”
06:52
Michelle
You know, and in the best cases they're connectors, right, but in other cases they are gatekeepers, where it's like: “I'm gonna decide, I'm gonna decide who I open the gate for, I'm gonna decide how far the gate opens, I'm gonna decide when to open the gate and I'm gonna make sure I know who's on the other side of it. I'm gonna…” It's like a jockeying, it's a dynamic thing. So in this case it was somebody who was trusted because they were part of a sanctioned entity putting forth a curriculum that a number of us took part in. And then this happened years later. So, this wasn't to be fair… I mean, they weren't like abusing anything in the relationship of providing that initial training, but they're a person that you trust and think that they're gonna make an introduction that could be mutually beneficial. And then, in the case that Joan is describing, you realize, well, it's a way of kind of letting a wolf in the door.
Amanda 07:52
Yikes.
Joan 07:53
Yeah, and I feel like I will begin by saying that I really… It's kind of like when people sexually harass you or belittle you or do things that are swipes and your brain may not catch up to that experience right away.
Amanda
Yeah…
Joan
And at least for me, like that's happened in my life and I totally cop to that.
Amanda 08:19
Same.
Joan 08:19
I think many people listening will experience that too.
So getting back to her. What just happened?
Michelle
Yeah, what just happened?
Joan 08:23
Yeah, like what just happened, you know. So she brought this guy in who ended up being out of the Delmarva region as well. He already had a food business, a pizza business, and he wanted to I think, per a family push like open up a bagel business. And she wanted to connect us, this person who we considered to be a business mentor for our bagel business. And when she arranged a meeting we're gonna be meeting at the art commissary kitchen we met in the conference room. Da-da-da… Of course we had like samples ready, because we were still in that mindset of just like “I must provide the thing” so I can get past all that shit.
09:01
But really struck me is that he asked us point blank in that meeting for our recipe.
Amanda
Oh!
Joan
And she didn't react to anything and my reaction was just like well, “no.” But I still like kept hearing him out and I feel like I should have either walked out or been like “why are we doing this?” I should have stopped talking to this woman immediately. But initially he took that no, and just he was saying bizarre and or flashy things like flexing, “Like well, we can talk about this in my roof top deck situation in DC…”
Amanda
What?
Michelle
…or that we could partner.
Joan
I guess like hang out with him because he's cool, because he has a roof top deck in DC, because he has money and…nepo kid.
Amanda 09:41
Uhhhh.
Joan 09:48
The term Nebo Baby, which is just short for nepotism baby is a concept that's been around for a while. A really clear example would be Royals. Some of the people who we hear about in the tabloids, who are, let's say, British royalty, we wouldn't hear about, we wouldn't know about, they wouldn't have their access to capital and power and privilege if they didn't come from some sort of lineage. And at the end of 2022, there was a seminal article by Vulture that was really comprehensive and it talked about Nepo Babies relative to Hollywood and their access to different opportunities. And made us really question how their success should be perceived.
When it comes to the nepo baby that we reference in today's episode, it's gonna be a little harder for me to drop a ton of detail because I really don't want to reveal who this person is. But just know that, while this person does not come from, let's just say, a restauranteur family, there's certainly a lot of capital there, there's certainly a lot of influence, there's a lot of connection. And it's come to be, if you follow the socials of his business, that a lot of the opportunities that first just seemed to be happenstance in feeding really important people in the world, were really connected to his initial backers who had a deep, deep connection with the government.
Joan
I should have again like stopped the conversation and been like “this is like really not for us.” But we were two years in and I feel like so, my guard, was down because of like who brought him in to speak to us, potentially collaborate. And we sold wholesale to him once. He did like a test brunch at his DC Pizzeria and that was it.
11:48
And then, like, we were ghosted and I can, you know I can go into like emails or more detail, but just overall, just know - person that we trusted, thought this could be an opportunity for us to partner with somebody who got money from his family to open up a bagel shop, a bagel business, and we let him in. He ended up trying to go for intellectual property which again I will say again and again and again in these episodes your recipes, your processes, your procedures, that's your business. Yeah, there's a major cost. If you wanna sell it, sell your business. You can like, you can price that. There's evaluation, even just for how much, I mean people you have in your mailing list. I mean there's so much value to that and again, I should have, I think, like just shut him down or walked out.
12:27
I should have never like wholesale to him, but he ended up going with a company where he had this lady who does, she sells recipes, or she'll work with you and then she'll create something, and he bought that and you know his business has been booming for some time and I should have stopped talking to this person who was our mentor. I should have like stopped the conversation. We did not give up our recipe. Which I think it's also - just the bottom line, a thing that we had to do. And, you know, looking back, I really think about my own vetting. You know, I think about people who go around saying that they support women-owned businesses and think that you just wanna hang out with like like, you wanna be associated with this guy who has all the bucks, like you wanna like help him and broker things for him.
Michelle 13:12
Yeah, I mean it's really hard to know, though, right? In the moment? I mean I think you know, it's arguable whether she believed that this was going to be helpful to us in terms of some partnership. I mean, he was certainly painting a picture of potential partnership and you know who knows, you don't? I don't know it's tough, because how do you really know people's true intentions?
Amanda 13:39
I'm curious about this person you were working with, whether they knew that that was what he was going to ask before they came in, before you came into the meeting, and also interested in knowing what the relationship was with this person after that meeting. Not the, not the guy, but the.
Joan 13:56
Yeah, the mentor.
Amanda 13:58
Yeah, the mentor.
Joan 13:59
I mean I remember telling her like “hey, like they ghosted us. We had this one sale to them. They ghosted us.” And she was just like, “oh well, these things happen.” And then, like we just, we just didn't hear from her for a while.
Amanda 14:07
But did she know that you were not interested in selling your recipe? Did she honest? I mean, did she know that going it? Did you talk to her about that afterwards?
Michelle 14:15
No, I mean, and that's what I'm saying, I don't know if she knew he was going to flat out ask that. I think she may have thought she was just making a connection. But…
Joan 14:25
She was in the room. I mean to be clear, if that's in any way unclear. She was in the room.
Michelle 14:27
But it seemed like you know, she knew how he rolled, too. So it's, it's tricky and I think, depending on who you are and what your experiences have been, you can read the situation totally differently. Yeah, but Joan’s, sticking point there is that this was a person who was in a position to build trust from fledgling businesses really at that point, and help, help them get on their way and basically put us in a position where we were the ones who had to give up something.
Amanda 15:07
That's interesting because, yeah, I think about the people who have mentored and made connections for me in the past and they have never been somebody who pitched themselves as “this is the industry, this is what I'm going to do for you.” It's always been somebody who's like: “well, I happen to know somebody who knows somebody and I'll make an introduction and whatever comes of it…” But if they're in the room with you.
Joan 15:29
Yeah.
Amanda
They probably should have a better understanding of who you are and what you value and what this other person may be looking for. Because to assume that you would be open to selling your recipe, I mean and again, we don't know if that, if she knew that that was what he was going to ask. But then to follow, not to follow up afterwards to be like, “hey, are you okay, I wasn't expecting that.” Or, you know, if you're in that business and if you are working with people who are looking to grow their food businesses, that seems like an obvious follow up. That just didn't seem to matter.
Joan 16:07
Yeah, that's fair. I think it was just a consequence. I don't know also how connected she is in Baltimore anymore, because for a while I think we were kind of like hot or things with just greater potential for stuff happening here, and then it kind of, it was no longer that.
Michelle 16:23
But it also speaks to like, you know, is that a mentor? I mean we. You use the term “mentor,” but I mean I don't think. I think that I don't know if she saw herself that way to us.
Amanda
More of a gatekeeper.
Michelle
Yeah.
Amanda
Yeah.
Joan 16:33
And I will say, like, when I shared this story with a development company because they were trying to get us to open up in one of their food halls, I mentioned to this one developer who we very much should not go with and I mentioned the story about this guy because he knew this guy and I was like: “you can believe that he did this?” He's just like, “wow, like that restauranteur is a smart man. He's a smart businessman.” Literally. He's a smart businessman for asking us for a recipe and I don't even think Michelle in that conversation even like offered us money. He's wanted our recipe.
Michelle 17:02
Yeah, I don't think he was going to pay us.
Joan
First of all he's real smart..
Amanda
What? What? What?
Joan
Yeah, he didn't even offer us money. But “can I get your recipe?” I think he wanted us to almost like maybe push back and be like “for how much?” you know? I mean that kind of like a bullshit thing. And we let in the vampire again because some we considered to be a mentor was just like “come on in.”
17:26
You know, you never have to make a rush decision. It's almost just like when people bank scam you. Like you, you don't have to like run and, run, you know, and like, run to the bank now and cut a check or like throw all the cash or transfer it, you know, to some foreign nation. Like you can take it, take your time, take a second. Reality test with other people. And I hope that we can start building a network through this podcast of people you can just reality test with, because, man, that was a tough moment. But again, without having that woman in the room, like I wouldn't have been as comfortable with having him there.
Michelle 17:56
Yeah, so it cuts both ways. But it's also I mean, that's the main reason for sharing some of these things, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Because I think even when it happened, we were like, “oh okay, so that's a connection, we'll solve some stuff. Yeah, maybe in some way this could end up. We could end up partnering, wouldn’t that be cool, like down the line.” And then, you know, once we got ghosted, we're like “oh, that's what that was about.” You know, but you don't know in the moment.
18:23
And I think there is this tendency to just… the meritocracy right? Like take advantage of every opportunity. Like it's not like… In an abusive situation, it's like “you should be grateful” and “you should be happy about all these things.” But just in terms of our culture, there's this sense of you know, learning from everything you can, from people who have done it, like making sure that you're available, that you're a sponge, that you're soaking in all of this information, that you're open to anything. You want to be a collab. I mentioned the word collaboration. I mean, you know, I want to be a collaborator, I want to be a true partner, I want to help build community. That's the thing I've been about my entire career.
Amanda
Of course. Yeah.
Michelle
So then, to be seen as like somebody who's selfish and doesn't want to share in this. And that it's like how do you, without having the time to like, lay this all out? How do you explain that you can still trust yourself, respect your boundaries and only want to be helpful in lifting people up?
19:24
But when people are abusing that system and trying to take shortcuts or, more importantly for this case of this audience, like, take advantage of people who have less to give, that's when it becomes a problem. And a lot of the things that we're talking about are just that. It's like, talk about wolf in sheep's clothing. It's like things brought to us under the guise of helping us taking. You know, we're these cute little entrepreneurs doing this thing and like, oh, I've got something that you know, here's a cookie, while someone else is being offered, you know, Cake Boss. You know I'm saying like it's, it's just, it's that kind of stuff. And if, if you're just so focused on saying “this is my lane, this is what I do. I'm going to be a good student, I'm going to be a diligent, I'm going to work hard, I'm going to do… I'm going to hit all the check boxes and do all the things I'm supposed to do.” You don't realize that this wool was being pulled over your eyes again and again, and again.
Amanda 20:25
This episode of Proofing Stage has been brought to you by…
Joan
…the Campaign to Decriminalize Carbs.
Joan 20:37
Well, while we didn't give him our recipe in the conversation. It was a little bit coaxed out of us, like our thoughts on how to. How we would be creating our shop in the future. You know it's earlier on for us and he had the means and we didn't. And I, we talked about like our open production and, and when he opened up he had open production. And you know well Joan and Michelle aren’t the first people thinking about open production in terms of a bagel shop, you just got to wonder if we just made things… And people like that look for other people, smaller people who don't have as much of a voice or don't have as much like legal assistance. They can just like take our shit and like run with it.
Michelle 21:13
Again back to the meritocracy. But also like all’s fair in love and business, right? I mean, I worked for many years for somebody who would just talk about like how you steal things as like a way of - like ideas, not criminal activity - right.
Joan 21:26
But it’s criminal. It’s still criminal.
Michelle 21:28
But I mean and there's a part of me that's so on board with that, right? Like that's a good idea, take it, make it your own like, amplify it. Now…
Amanda
Depending.
Michelle
Depending. Right, depending. And that’s where…
Joan
…you have consent.
Amanda 21:41
When's the situation where I can go up to somebody and say “I'm taking your idea” or hey, you know, I go to a restaurant that I really enjoy eating at and I say “how do you make that? Will you please give me your recipe so that I can replicate it and sell it to other people?” Like that reality just does not exist in any way, shape or form in my… It is… that, that's just not a thing. But if I do see that somebody is doing something really well and I look at their model and I'm like well, maybe this right. So say, I'm looking at people who are running laundromats, right? Laundromats are really big business right now.
22:21
People are buying laundromats, fixing them up, right? And I'm looking at that and, you know, personally I'm thinking I think I want to buy a bunch of podcasting booths, and put them all in one space so people can, can just come in. I'm taking an idea from one place and just applying it to something else. I feel like that's something that, that's just a model, but taking someone's actual intellectual property and…
Joan 22:49
A recipe has, like, how you roll it out. I mean, has the instructions to it. So, generally, something that's like replicable. And you reminded me, like I was on a different podcast during the pandemic and it was Yoriko Morita’s Novel and Non-obvious podcast, and it was about intellectual property. She's among many things, like a patent attorney, and works in that space. And I just like unpacked like our philosophy on how we do things with BUB and how we'll be doing things with this podcast as relates to intellectual property and protecting things. And she's like you're the first like restaurant person or food business person I've ever talked to who has like this level of caring about like having an NDA for staff that protects your ideas and like your procedures but doesn't protect shitty people. I mean people have NDAs in food businesses, as we know too well, especially in Baltimore, that just protect the shitty people, you know, but they don't protect the actual IP like. And these are for IP, you know, and then there's intellectual property of actually what's behind the business. It's not to protect people who break into their team members phones to find Boudoir photos and to message those Boudoir photos to themselves for their own - God help us - Enjoyment.
Shade thrown, aisle nine.
23:59
Amanda
I’m not cleaning that up.
Michelle
Save that for someone else.
Joan
Should we go to the next gatekeeper/nepo group in terms of thinking about a kitchen that we also did not go into? Like another, like a, it was a food hall.
Amanda 24:27
Oh, yes, please.
If you’re up for it, sure.
Joan 24:28
It used to be a big thing [food halls]. This is, of course, like before COVID, when people thought “big spaces, many stalls. I'm making the money.”
Michelle 24:36
They're still going up everywhere.
Amanda
Indeed, they are.
Michelle
I mean, when we were in Columbus, that was, would have been like the only place we could sell.
Joan 24:45
Oh, that's true actually. Yeah, that's true actually, but we find a different way, of course, as we tend to do.
Michelle 24:51
You could argue… I mean, this depends on what you want, right? Like, and if you want to stand out and if you want to have, you know, your own culture and work environment and things like that. Maybe it's not the best option, maybe it is. I mean, there are people who have been very successful and in terms of having multiple locations, it's definitely a way to do it. A lot of these have been built by development companies as a suite of amenities for corresponding residential properties, right like that's, that's the thing. Because you know how we all know there can’t be enough housing built, and then you have people moving to places and they need to eat.
Amanda 25:32
They need communal spaces, too, right?
Joan
Yeah.
Amanda
They need places. To me it's not a terrible idea the it's not it's when the execution of it comes second or third or fifth. Then I think it gets a little sloppy, but the, the concept in general is not terrible.
Joan 25:50
No, and it's historic. Faneuil Hall; Lexington Market in Baltimore, it's. These are like historic things. When the business was I think not even like a year old, Michelle, we were, we were still doing the church kitchens and community center kitchens and we were approached by a upcoming food hall that wanted to engage with us to have us be a vendor there, and then like shit, just like when sideways in the conversation. This is an example of actually us having, unlike the, having the mentor be like “here, let in the vampire.”
26:24
We were very level-headed in this meeting and I show up to this meeting. I had taken a break because I was still working for Hopkins. I was like on my lunch break. Michelle and I meet up with this, this guy at the space that was being built. Number one, don't meet with me in an active construction zone and expect me to hear you. So, I was just like “can we please move out of here so I can like…” again, like “show me the plans or just walk us through, but like we're not gonna have a conversation about the lease and other things in this space.” Okay, there we go. That's the first part. Then we end up talking about the lease and this is not really helpful for people who are starting out, for sure, and I think for no food business. So you end up paying towards building out your space, which we will go into more in depth we talk about the Bub Hub Beta; but you still have to go into like building out whatever your stall would be. And the person did not lead, this guy did not lead with this, but he stated that we would have to do afternoon into evening as our hours.
27:30
Again, Michelle and I have owned a bagel business for now eight years. We have done some funky stuff in the evening. We've done like things outside of like, just testing out different concepts, but generally I would want it to be in a market of that nature. I'd want it to be a breakfast into lunch spot, because that's just it. You know, if for some reason, we want to do bagels, you know, pizza bagels one night, that's totally cool. But he basically is trying to get us to move in and pay to not be a breakfast vendor, because he already had a breakfast vendor and there could be only one.
Michelle 28:06
Yeah, a lot of these halls have non-competes, so…
Amanda 28:11
Ooh… But it's interesting that it'd be a non-compete for one meal out of three.
Michelle 28:15
Right?! I mean that's… And I think maybe I mean…
Joan
Multiple lunch, multiple dinner [vendors].
Michelle
There's probably, things have changed, but I mean again, this just speaks to some of the thinking around these things. It's like the cost to build out your space, the cost of equipment, a flat rent and a percentage of your sales was the model that they were using.
Joan
So the more you made…
Michelle
To not sell our core item at its core time?
Amanda 28:46
Right.
Michelle 28:47
So you know, it's just one of those things. And again, I don't think this is malicious, I just think it's a waste of your freaking time. And so that's where, like knowing what you know, I mean now, I mean we get approached by food halls all the time. I have three questions. I ask them, you know. And then you know, to their credit, that there's much less like screwing around than there used to be of like come look, blah, blah, blah, Like they'll just answer your questions and then everybody can move on. But and then they spend their time trying to convince me that percentage on sales rent is something that I should get excited about. And but I know this just not a good fit for us.
29:21
And it's like, in some cases it makes sense, especially in places where you don't have to build it out, you don't have to pay for build out, Like yeah, if you're just starting out, you don't know how well you're gonna do. You know? You know you're only gonna have to pay as much as you make, by a certain percentage. Sure, but I've also had other food halls try to convince us that we don't know our customer after being in business for seven years, and that they can't give me a sense of what rent will be, because we need to try things out. And again, I don't think it's. I think they're trying to be helpful, but it's like - I'm telling you what I need, I'm telling you what I'm looking for and you are telling me that I don't actually know what I know.
Joan 30:10
And at this point, it's a very different reaction. I think two things come to mind. I'll just piggyback on Michelle's saying. So, for Baltimore customers, Baltimore listeners, the place that Michelle's talking about is in the city. I mean, you would have had a big, fucking long pop up there to serve you while we look out for other space. But they really blew it for us by being to me just like tone deaf plus disrespectful, but like how would we not know “the Baltimore customer.” Are you fucking kidding me? Like we've both lived here for almost 20 years. We've served here for like there abouts like eight years. I mean, that's really the - what are you leading with? I want to give you money to use a space that's not being used. So, we shut the fuck up. Either take it or don't.
Amanda 30:56
We're not talking about restauranteurs either. We're talking about…
Michelle
…these are developers.
Joan 31:00
You have an empty space, we're going to give you money to rent it out and bring people into your space that needs it, okay.
Amanda 31:06
That's that there's an arrogance there, right like… yeah.
Michelle 31:11
Yeah. I mean it's kind of similar to the topics that we were talking about before and just this like advice giving, which is fine if you've been there and done it, you know, and this has happened outside this jurisdiction too.
31:27
There was actually another location we were looking into when we were trying to get the specs to see if we could put in a hood system, and there was the first question this was a great location, great size, room to grow - everything.
31:40
The first question I asked the architect was like well, do we know if this, if we could get a hood in here, because it's already built out, it's on the ground floor. That's really hard because typically you have to go through all the properties, like, typically this would happen first [meaning the hood installation] and it's also very expensive because that stuff is like a thousand bucks a foot right To like meant it out. So the first question we asked was like is it possible and, if so, how much is it going to cost? So you know, six, I don't know six weeks maybe? Like going back and forth, following up, looking into this, researching. So, the message that I get back is “well, I think you should call this person at the health department. And you know we looked at it, and I got this thing, and here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna contact the person at the health department and you're gonna see if you need a hood to make your product.”
Amanda 32:34
Oh boy. Wow.
Michelle 32:37
Yeah, I mean, and I'll spare the rest of it, but it's like, are you kidding me? Like are other people getting this? Like I mean…
Joan
“You don't know what you need.”
Michelle
I mean maybe, maybe they are and to our credit, we no longer feel like we need to listen to that stuff. We're just like: “this was the first question I asked you. Like thanks. Thanks for your like…” Thanks, but no thanks type of thing. That's another way of gatekeeping and keeping, you know, certain things in the system in place.
Joan 33:05
Two more things about the food hall. So, with that food hall, where we walked in and it was like wow. And the guy, I told the guy we need to meet with you to place them. It makes sense that it does a lot of space and there was like the non-compete for breakfast. It was also assumed that would be a space for people who need incubation to some degree. And it turned out everybody who ended up moving into there - this was their second business, which is just facts. And I also want to mention that Michelle referred to sales and how that would impact rent and there was a stipulation, so mechanically, how that would happen. And this was in the lease language which blew my fucking mind. Because, don't forget, I was reviewing like contracts and agreements for universities and like at that point I was like, holy fuck, this stood out to me. They have access to your books. That was going to be part of what you agreed to.
33:58
So the more you grew, you're going to be penalized by having to, like, pay more money. So, again, intellectual property is your information and unless you're talking to a lender who only asks you for specific aspects of your books, no one should have access to your books. Unless they have equity. I mean, there's different reasons why people should have access. Or your accountant. You know, that's very different. But to me that was just such a crazy boundary and I was just like “who the fuck is going to agree to this shit?”
Michelle 34:26
But now that's the norm. I mean all of these places, including the nonprofit ones - I mean it's a little bit different because they're using it for programming purposes - but like because they… It obviously benefits them to have a pulse on how their businesses are doing. And in the cases of for-profit development it helps to market to future tenants and things like that, not to mention get your accurate cut because you're seeing what comes in. It is commonplace. I mean, I think every place that we've talked to in the last four years that's part of their process.
Joan 35:05
But if people, if the customers, if the consumers of food knew about this, I do have to wonder like, would they want to know? And would they still go to these places or just like hang out there? I feel like, do whatever you're going to do, but I feel like people need to have this information to some degree. We're not naming names on this specific episode, but you got to wonder. Like it influences me. Like when I this is a different kind of example, but when breweries are shitty like an example I just mentioned about people's phones being broken into by people have equity stake in like a brewery, I don't buy their shit anymore. That's just me voting with my dollar.
35:42
I happen to have like a bizillion other choices, by the way, in terms of like having good beer that's local and beyond. But I do wonder if people realize that about food halls or the business I was talking about earlier that tried to like, that asked for our IP and then, you know, ghosted us and all this shit. If it would make a difference if people knew. I mean, our audience for this is going to be people who are more going to be in our position or our shoes in terms of dealing with these systems, but I do have to wonder if anybody listening has some thoughts on that, if they have impacted, if it's impacted like their behavior, their shopping behavior, where they've gone, where they spend money, based on what they learn about a business.
Amanda 36:20
I wonder if there are any businesses that are not entering these spaces because of stipulations like that and what their other options are. And it sucks because something like a food hall should be a logical first or second step into growing your business. That just seems like a starter home and then you move into something larger and that's just a sad. That just makes me sad.
Michelle 36:52
Yeah, I mean, and it speaks to, you know, obviously a theme for us which is, you know, not… maybe not everybody cares that much. We're thinking about it that way, but our whole point is to just share information and you know, on the topic of what customers do, if they knew, I mean, I think that really depends, right? There's a whole spectrum there of people who either really want to vote with their dollar and do it like without fail. There are people who want to and do it when they can, there are people who just, you know, don't do things that way and obviously everything in the middle. But I brought this up with, actually, a reporter when we were being asked about something in regard to our shop closing last year, because what I think is important for customers to know, especially in places that are very community driven and really, really are focused on supporting local and really conscious about it, like know that they're showing up for that business is as important as that business showing up for them in order to keep them afloat. And it's amazing and we saw it happen especially during COVID and beyond. But some of the systems in things that are in place get in the way. And I think it's almost like not fair to customers to say you know, “you were here every day that we were opened. Every single day you came, you bought a coffee, you bought a sandwich, because you were…” like I mean, we had a customer say this to us when we opened: “Like I swear I will not be the reason why a place doesn't make it on Greenmount Avenue.” You know, and God bless, like I mean, like it makes me emotional.
38:25
But there are so many other forces, right? There's like being gaslit by our landlords, there's city services, there's you know well, COVID itself. There's like a you know supply chain, there's all of these things. But when it comes to, yeah, a kind of way of doing business with something that is an example of, like the transparency of books or this, I think, being seen as an amenity rather than being seen as a business to support other people who are hopefully gonna support you as a business, but it's not seen in the same way as, I think, like a mom and pop on Main Street is. And I'm not saying it's better or worse, but I'm saying that there are things that happen as a result.
Joan 39:11
And so yeah to awesome customers around the globe - sometimes love just ain't enough.
Amanda
Yeah…
Michelle 39:20
Which I mean… Yeah, I appreciate the tone… I mean it's like, you know, it's all a part of, it's a part of right Like. So we didn't go that route. We went the route of like, at our own cost, building out a whole place with our eyes open, knowing that was risky because, you know, obviously renting and not owning is risky, but knowing that we needed to see through this vision and see if it could be what we thought it could be. And there are, you know, all the pieces that went into that will, you know, come out over time - good, bad and ugly. But I think, in terms of listeners and other business owners like you just got to know what you want and what is best for you. And sometimes what you want isn't best for you, but you still need to figure it, you still need to try it out because it's what you want and it's what your vision is and it's the direction that you're heading in right?
40:13
Like I mean, we didn't stay in the kitchen because we wanted to [for] an extra two years. We didn't have any other options, you know? And we needed, we didn't think at the time that we could lose the momentum that we were building with, building a customer base, having a connection to our community, bringing on more people. We didn't want to lose that momentum by not operating while we waited for a place to be built out. I think maybe if we had been around for 10 years and we did that, maybe it'd be okay, you know? But there are different ways to do it. I know people who are like taking some time off now while they're having a place built out - and good for them. Like it never even occurred to me that that would be an option, you know? So, there are different ways to do things. Obviously, we're just sharing our experience and again trying to shed light on some things that people may not know.
Amanda 41:09
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme song, “Bagels for the Kraken” was written and performed by Thorn Haze. We also want to cite Pixabay for additional tracks. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes and additional credits, they can be found on our website: proofingstagecom. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmaildotcom. You can also find us at Instagram at proofingstage.
Joan 41:38
I will also say that he very much reminded me - if you were to picture him - as a white guy, and he, you know, unusually tan - and he presents as the Troy character from the movie Theater Camp.
Amanda
Damn you, I haven't seen it.
Joan
That's gonna be your thing.
00:19 / 41:55