Points for Creativity

We're celebrating the end of Season 1 with big slice of creativity, talking inspiration and intention with a generous sprinkling of strategy. After all, if you've started a business or dream of starting one, you've got that creative inside you. Whether it's thinking about a different way to design your venture altogether, or giving it just the right vibe or visual representation, your business and your brand is an extension of you. So, take some time to get it right and be PROUD of what you've created. 

In this season finale the creative forces behind Proofing Stage discuss the unexpected approaches to some of Bottoms Up Bagels (BUB) menu items, events, commercials and antics. And, it's more than just a good time with: the purpose of cementing your brand, connecting with your customers and driving business. We zero in on finding the right professional creatives to materialize a vision, and how to develop working relationships that respect what each party brings to the table. In doing so, we share examples from our journey together on Proofing Stage this season, and what's to come. 

Imbuing business with creativity isn't new.

But what do you do when it's all up to you?

• Business title and item names are an obvious place.
• Next up: merch design - hope your illustrator's an ace!
• Marketing videos won't land if you don't have a clue
• Of what you want, or who can deliver that to you.

So take heed, and do listen up
To this final episode of the season, Cheers! Bottoms Up!

Break this one up if you need to, but don't miss any of these hits that surely stick the landing.

And, check out our Instagram for the puppets. 

BUB TV:

Spend Some Time with Miss Michelle [Romper Room spoof]

Contactless vs No-Contact

Michelle as Mary Tyler Moore [Roadshow promotional video]

Foraging with Joan

Halitos - One Seed Makes Everything [Elizabeth Holmes/Theranos spoof]

Theme music by Thorn Haze

Additional music by: AlisiaBeats (via Pixabay)

Artwork by Lisa Orye

Find more at proofingstage.com
Follow us on Instagram and Threads @proofingstage

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Transcript

Amanda: 0:00

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own. The pod also contains explicit language and occasional references to mature content and themes. To review our full notice and disclaimer, please visit our website at ProofingStage.com. 

Michelle: 0:17

Cheers to…

Amanda

Cheers.

Michelle

… the season finale of the first season of Proofing Stage. Salud.

Joan: 0:24

Seriously. Salud.

Amanda: 0:26

Well-done. I'm Amanda Schwarz.

Joan: 0:30

I'm Joan Kanner. 

Michelle

I'm Michelle Bond.

Joan

And sometimes you need to create - and dance - as if no one were watching.

Amanda1: 0:37

Is that what we're going to be calling this episode?

Joan: 0:40

No idea, no idea. It just felt right.

Amanda: 0:42

“No idea?”

Michelle: 0:44

Well, we've literally been calling it “Points for Creativity,” but I don't know if that's the actual title.

Joan: 0:48

Do we stick the landing that comes to this episode: “Points for Creativity”?

Amanda: 0:53

This is Proofing Stage. 

Amanda

When I started my business, my business's URL - not my URL - my LLC name is: AJ Schwarz, LLC. And I had no idea what I was going to be doing with my brand. I had no idea what I was going to name it and took me a really long time to kind of come to that place. But at the same time, I needed to do work. And as I'm doing this work and I'm building out this portfolio of sorts - I suppose - I was really trying to find myself. And it's hard to do that without actually doing the thing. And I think this is where this kind of strange symbiotic relationship between becoming a company, becoming a brand and being creative all just kind of come together. Where some people have an idea, where they're like “Oh, I'm just going to name my company, J.O.E., and this is what we're going to do.” There are other people who really need that kind of juice to kind of really, you know… And I don't know if this is people who end up living their careers, and what I mean by that is that what they have built as an entrepreneur is an extension of themselves. I knew that it was very important for me to show up authentically everywhere that I went because I had been really, really tired of not being able to be myself. It was really killing me in a lot of ways. So, I knew that Mended [Digital] had to become an extension of who I was in order for it to have any kind of longevity. And this is where I thought creativity was an interesting thing to explore with Joan and Michelle, because they have been doing creative things throughout. As I got to know them and I got to know what they have created as BUB, and then looking on YouTube [BUB TV] and checking out their socials and I'm like, “Oh, they've been doing some other things. And, WOW, they've been doing some other things…” And so, we wanted to explore a bit of this. You know how creativity manifests in a business, the inner workings of what it means to be creative within different platforms, working with different creatives and how that looks… and exploring these kind of themes. Does that sound like a relatively good place to start?

Joan: 3:12

Thumbs up. Right. 

Joan

I think part of the episode, too, relates to art for art's sake. It's hard when you're a business to justify line items that relate to things that are more artsy or more out there. I think it's much easier to apply to things like our menu items. Creative names and different ingredients, I think, are easier to justify because you're able to sell those things, you're able to tailor them to an event [in a way] that makes sense. You make more money based on that. So, it's been a challenge to be able to do things that are artsy and meaningful and creative and out there and justify them, business-wise. But you're able to do that when you need certain things, like things like merch, marketing videos, and I think that's where we're able to tie in the business end to the art for art's sake end, which is important to me as well.

Amanda: 4:01

So, then let's start with the lowest common denominator, then. We're just… the naming of products. We were just talking about the Roadshow and how, if you've caught the last previous episodes, we were talking about just briefly, not even like the last episode but the one before about the naming of certain products based on where you were at and what you were doing. And I think this is kind of a nice tie-in between the content of the Roadshow.

Joan: 4:25

And clearly, it's a good bridge, too. Because the Roadshow was - and is - a creative endeavor. This doesn't really fit the formula, formula of doing market expansion.

Michelle: 4:33

Right, yeah. The Antiques Roadshow, the TV show, is the inspiration for, in some ways, naming it, right? It's like taking your stuff on the road and seeing what you find and who you meet along the way. So yeah, the [menu item] names have always been a part of it and I think there's been a balance between trying to make every menu item a cleverly named thing and just using it when it feels right. In the earliest days, I remember just when we were describing - I think it was on Episode Two - the first pop-up where we talked about having the “Jersey Brekkie” on the menu. I mean, that was a staple. And people came to call it that. And then it was “The Brekkie,” for sure, and that delighted me so much because, obviously, we're talking about Taylor Ham and pork roll. So, Jersey's got to be there. And we wanted to also cement some credibility as people making bagels in the Mid-Atlantic. That, like we knew from bagel country, and in one of those carryovers was the Taylor Ham. But the “Brekkie” part came because you know, I spent so much time in South Africa in the Peace Corps and “Brekkie” was, like you know, kind of derivative from, you know, in Britain just a slang term for breakfast. And so, the name of that sandwich, the Taylor Ham, egg and cheese - we called the “Jersey Brekkie.” And so that was more meaningful on maybe like a personal level to start. But it's a good example of something that just becomes nomenclature and a part of your brand, if you continue to use it and if you bring people along for part of that. I mean, very rarely did somebody ask us what it meant. You know what it did? We got to tell a story, but they just accepted it.

Joan: 6:07

A lot of creativity is just having people agree to be part of your imagination, or part of your world or co-create with you. So, buying into it, or not necessarily buying into it sometimes, in the case of people [who] bought the Brekkie just based on the content of it [the sandwich], but just people who sign off on that and go, “Yep, I'm okay with that, let's move on.” And that's something you really shouldn't lose, you know, once you grow out of childhood.

Amanda 1: 6:30

No, I think about the name for Mended [Digital]. Mended has a very, very deep meaning for me and that's, it's a very personal, deep thing. And you know, at one point I was on some networking call and someone was asking about like names of businesses and I doubled down into like why I named it Mended. 

Michelle

Mmm, hmmm.

Amanda

And it's funny because, yeah, people just kind of call it Mended Digital and they're like, “okay, cool, that's a…” you know, whatever. But the people who ask and you get to tell that very personal story, it is really funny to just hear it kind of like thrown around “Oh, ‘Mended.’ Gotcha. I know what you mean.” And I'm like, “Well, you do, but you don't.” So, it's nice to be asked.

Michelle: 7:04

No, but it's true and like, well, but you get the sense about Mended, too, from your website. The genesis of this is brand, right? Like… 

Amanda

Yes.

Michelle

… it's about showing what you're about. And I could go off for hours - maybe next season - about the difference between brand and logo. But I mean, I think a lot of people conflate those things and it's really just. There's so many different layers to brand and, for me, the thing that's always struck me about it is the way it makes you feel. And in order to have a feeling associated with an entity that sells you a product, there needs to be something there, right? Like there needs to be something you can dig your teeth into. There needs to be something that you can touch and feel, in addition to, in our case, what you could taste and see. And all of these creative endeavors, I think, are adding those layers of texture or adding those layers of feeling - we hope - to, even if it's just like, an the eye roll, they're like “I don't get it. I don't know. Joan is so esoteric.” You know? But that's part of it, too, from the earliest stages, because we were pop-up based. 

Michelle

To your food question, we were often showing up at breweries or art galleries or outdoor concerts - like random events that most people are not necessarily looking for bagels at. I mean, it's different if it's a brunch event, you can spin it [the menu] all kinds of ways. But we really needed people to show up because oftentimes this was our only opportunity to sell in a given week, especially in the early days. And so, part of showcasing our food was also making it fun and often tying it into what was going on. So, for example, if we had an event at a place for a Ravens game, depending on who that team was playing we would make a menu item from that region. That's how our Kimmelweck bagel - kosher salt and caraway seed - which is a fan favorite; that started because we did a brewery event during a game where the Ravens were playing the Bills and Joan's like “Let's make beef on weck…” 

Amanda

Mmm…

Michelle

“… but let's do it on, but let's do it on - instead of a Kimmelweck bun - let's put it on a bagel. You know, let's make a Kimmelweck bagel.” And then it's so popular that the bagel makes it onto like a permanent part of our menu and that's a sandwich that we would do as a special over time. So, everything from specific menu items to like whole themes. You know we were doing Dungeons and Dragons events at other breweries. And you know we would try to do some twists on things we would normally make and then obviously title them in-line with what was going on, so that it's like a thing. It's a thing for your partner [business you’re partnering with as a sales site], it's a thing for the people attending, it's a thing for our team. It just kind of makes, again, the whole atmosphere around something that could just be “Oh, there's going to be some sustenance here while you drink your beer” to an elevated kind of thing.

Amanda: 9:49

Well, what's interesting too is that you're selling a bagel at a time where people don't normally eat bagels. You know, if you're selling a bagel at five o'clock at night because you're at an event of some sort, you've got to convince somebody to eat a bagel later in the day.

Joan: 10:01

Yeah, it's like not like the typical choice to do things at those odd times. But to Michelle's point, these were the opportunities that we had to sell because we were still in that shared kitchen. We didn't have a space of our own yet and, ultimately, bagels really are good bread and I would fight to the death when it comes to the Kimmelweck, the beef on weck sandwich. Separately, it also speaks to how Americans do love a little bit of pain when they're eating. Sometimes it's like really spicy things, but just like that jagged salt on the roof of your mouth just scraaaaaping… 

Michelle

[laughs]

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan

…as part of the experience. While, the salt slowly melts and falls into the horseradish and the beef.

Michelle

Yeah.

Amanda: 10:39

Was there ever a time where you thought up a name and you thought, “Maybe not. Maybe we shouldn't…” 

Joan.

Yes. Yes.

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan: 10:49

Yes. Yes. I mean I think… 

Amanda

Do you care to share any of those? [laughs]

Joan

We were doing at another brewery in Baltimore. We were doing a St. Pat's event, in which case, like people are eating and doing whatever. So that's different. That was like total on brunch. Totally makes sense to have bagel-related things there and we had different hashes. But I don't know if it's considered like hipster thinking or how the outputs of my brain would be perceived. But I thought about when people say “Kiss me, I'm Irish.” And I was like “no…” 

Michelle

[laughs]

Joan

“…I'm not going to make a cabbage dish that falls in line with Irish culture only.” I thought: “one of my favorite cabbage dishes is Andalusian,” because that's normal. So…

Amanda

What is that?

Joan: 11:39

It's a part of Spain. 

Amanda

I've never heard of that. Okay, all right, but can you elaborate a little bit on what that is? I'm sorry to take the pause, but… 

Joan

No, no. You’re…

Amanda: 11:48

What is that? What's that? Is that your? 

Joan: 11:52

It’s cabbage and like bell peppers, treated like very delicately. And it's also a way of me sneaking in a vegan dish, because when it comes to like side dishes, people don't care if they're vegan. But you just don't say they are [vegan], just put on the menu. So, I call it the “Besame, yo soy andalus.” You know what I mean? Like, literally, I mean I might as well be someone who listens to the like The Decemberists. You know? 

Michelle

[laughs]

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan

The song about Andalusian dog. This is how white and out there… I'm not not a fan of them, by the way. I do respect what they do, but I'm not a fan. 

Amanda

That's fair. That's fair. 

Joan

But that’s just one of the things. So then just people like ordering it just wanted to get like the cabbage, you know? But that was like pushing it… 

Michelle

… about the cabbage. 

Amanda

Yeah 

Joan

Well, it's like not offensive. It was definitely one of those things from like “Oh Joan, that's art for art's sake, honey” just…

Amanda

[laughs]

Michelle

Yeah. 

Amanda

That’s good.

Joan

And then Juanita Ca$h. It's a person and a band and the artist does Cumbia, like Cumbia versions of Johnny Cash songs. And it's incredible. The whole concept of her and the group is that if Johnny Cash had a love child in Mexico. Which let's just say like, is like, not too far-fetched…

Michelle

It’s quite possible.

Joan

… in terms of like being conceivable in all the ways, like mentally conceivable, physically conceivable, it's totally plausible. And they were doing an event in Paterson Park. And because a colleague from Michelle's grad school was basically in charge of these events, it'd be… Also decided to push ourselves and do an evening event and then we're going to be one of a few different vendors. And then we thought, okay, how can we rename different menu items, like not create something new by any means? So like learning from those other earlier mistakes and just you know. So now, like the Loxed Up sandwich, which is lox, cream cheese, bagel, capers - if you want them or not. But we changed it [the sandwich’s name] to something involving like being locked up in Folsom Prison. I mean, just like little things here and there. And for me, the biggest besides, like the sales that we got that night, the biggest compliment to me was just sending the food back. Of course, we couldn't meet the band. Again, I'm not cool enough. But we know, we know this. Sent the food back with a copy of the menu and got feedback from the person running the event that they [the band] absolutely like love that tie-in [naming of menu items], but also enjoyed the food. And I was just like, “yes!” Sometimes doing something, only getting like an audience of one to give you feedback, like playing to the almost empty room, to me is also important if you're doing it for your craft and you're doing it earnestly. 

Joan

And - don’t forget - breweries sell liquid bagel. So, we already know you have an audience of people who do gluten, for the most part, right?

Amanda: 14:37

That's right. That's right, absolutely.

Joan: 14:40

They [breweries] generally don't have kitchens. We did this one event in “the before times” and it was a Valentine's event, which was meant for people to hang out, come up with their pets, and they had like photo booth sessions. You can like bring your pets and like, have like different hats and…

Michelle

 Props. 

Joan

…and I was excited to be at this event and to do our stuffed French toast. But I wanted to do it differently because they had really interesting stouts on the menu. And I thought “I'm going to turn one of these motherfucking stouts into a caramel sauce.” 

Amanda

Oooo…

Joan

But I knew I couldn't get the beer ahead of time to do it at the shared kitchen, bring it back. You have to do it on-site. And it was just amazing to be able to like cook it on-site and get the feedback from the bartenders, to be able to like have people smell it being made. So, for me it's also about when you're used to doing the same thing over and over again, you have to keep it interesting. And I thought the challenge of doing something like that on-site for the first time would be meaningful and fulfilling. It was.

Amanda: 15:42

You know, a standard bagel shop in New Jersey is very standard. You go in and you get a certain type of bagel, a certain type of lox and no one's really aiming for creativity.

Michelle: 15:54

Primarily it started because, like I said, we were doing these events outside of traditional times and settings. Much of it was to keep it interesting for us, too. But we really tried to like, like doing an event at a winery, for example, it was different than doing an event at a brewery in terms of what we saw. You know what's a lighter… You know, maybe there's a curried chicken salad on the menu at a winery versus at a brewery where we're doing patty melts. A lot of it was just like who we are as food people, what we like to consume, but also Joan always likes to push the envelope technically and also who BUB is Like. BUB was never just a bagel shop that sells bagels and cream cheese. You know, between curing various types of lox, the brisket, we're really kind of combining the best of all worlds that we grew up in in terms of what the breakfast offerings are. So, you know think about a diner in that part of the world. There's like a million and one things on the menu. And while we weren't trying to go that extreme, we were definitely pulling out our favorites. Like I like a good chicken salad as much as I like, you know, lox, as much as I like peanut butter and jelly on a bagel. That's what the other amazing thing about bagels is like - they're so customizable. And so, we had already kind of pulled these threads out for the business, like even at farmers markets, we started trying to do some of these specials and early on realized, like that's not what people are there for. People there just want to get their staples, right? They want their bagels for the week. Maybe they'll treat themselves to a Loxed Up [sandwich]. They're going to the vendor next to us to buy the scones they like or the dairy to get their you know refillable bottles. And so, that's not a place where people want to try… I think we had something called “The Locomotion” [open-faced sandwich] on which we were using, you know cheese stamps from this great local vendor that sadly is no longer around, and like a jalapeno jam from another vendor, and then we were putting melted cheese on it. Like, we were trying to do more creative stuff but quickly learned that wasn't the venue for it. So, then these other places gave us the opportunity to play in that way and do what we originally wanted to do was like show kind of who we were through the food. But then this whole creative aspect of like pairing it to either where we were or the time of day, or maybe who the headliner was, was like a next level kind of fun opportunity for us.

Amanda: 18:17

You decide that there are certain things that you are doing creatively on your own but then, obviously, I mean - myself included - you start to include professionals. At what point did you say “We want to make a push for something else”? “We need to get somebody else involved.”

Joan 3: 18:34

Well, I am happy to learn about all kinds of new things in the world, but I am not a filmmaker. Like I've learned now to like script things and storyboard and produce, but in part that's learning alongside people who went to school to do that. I don't need to do all the things, right? I don't need to be a plumber, I don't need to do those other things that are seemingly less creative. But if it's logo design, I can talk you through it. I need someone better than me who knows the process for pulling something else out that makes more sense. So, to me it's the, the tasks I don't inherently know but can learn about. I just like leaving it to the, to the professionals, the people who are trained to do this.

Michelle: 19:12

Yeah, and like, being creative with the food is one thing, right? Like Joan is, developing most of our menu items. I have a marketing kind of branding framework that I see the world in. So that, you know, this kind of naming convention and the actual dishes was very natural to us and an extension of the fields we were professionals in. But, like Joan said, when it got to like, “Oh, my god, we have these creative ideas, but how on earth do we get them visualized in the way that we hope?” And that's everything from, yeah, from logo and merch to video and stuff. I mean we know where, we know where our skill sets stop. [laughs]

Michelle

You know it's like and well, again, entrepreneurs, right? They find a way. They wear all the hats - they fashion the hats that they wear, oftentimes. We just knew that when it came to more of a visual content presence like that wasn't, that wasn't where we excelled. And it was also a great chance to work with some of the really, really talented local folks who do that kind of thing. And for them it's always like never what they're thinking. They're like “Oh, you know, a bagel place wants my help with something…” and then you tell them what we're thinking and they either run in the other direction or are like, “Oh okay, yeah you know… let's do it.” 

Joan

It saves time. Helps [when they] self-select, you know? That’s helpful…

Amanda: 20:30

That’s true, that's true.

Amanda: 20:34

So, what was your first um your, your first attempt at working with somebody else to build out your, you know, your vision?

Michelle: 20:43

I guess the first thing was really the logo, right? We didn't have a logo for our first year in business. Um, we really were like well, we're a bagel shop, we need to put our name out there. We had this like rough, you know, circle with our name [as our first logo]. We were just like we need people to know who we are. We need to like just start creating a presence. We had a strong sense of what we were trying to do, but we didn't like it wasn't fully formulated and we knew we weren't going to be the ones to create that. So, we just kind of let it ride for a while. We, we just even though it was like embarrassing, anytime we code… you know, we're like, oh, having events, that's your logo. I'm like, “Uh, here, you go…” 

Joan

[laughs]

Michelle

No, but, um, but it was…

Amanda

I know that feeling. 

Michelle

Yeah, it just, uh, it was embarrassing. But that's another kind of example of diligence and patience, right? Like by the, by the time we were ready, by the time we had a little bit of money to be able to pay somebody who's very good at doing this, we could answer all their questions, right? It's not only about what you sell, it's like “Who's your customer? What do you want people to feel?” Like any good brand person will ask you these questions. And do you know? Do you know if you've been in business for like a week and you're throwing up a logo? I mean, maybe you do. Um and, and more, more power to you. But we were just like “This is who we think we are.” But we wanted to test it. And so, we spent that year, you know, we had that three-question survey that we put in every bag of bagels. We're just like getting feedback constantly, like is this who, are people? Are people picking up what we're putting down or where? And if not, where are they pulling us to? And is that a place we want to go? And you know, so, it gave us a chance to, I think, sit with all that stuff and then work with some really talented uh, graphic designers locally. To have this whole really mid-century modern inspiration, which is where, like, diner culture and if we think about, you know, you [meaning Joan] have even like a soundtrack to BUB, like if you think about that that's, that's where all um those, those feelings and sounds come from.

Joan: 22:42

But you had to picture the first cutting board inspiration for this, Amanda. So, our first logo was inspired by almost like a Shroud of Turin… Anyone? Anyone? 

Amanda

Uh, ,yeah.

Joan

… experience. 

Amanda

That I got. 

Joan

Okay, good. Uh, feel free to duckduckgo it [meaning looking up “Shroud of Turin”], audience. 

Amanda

[laughs]

So, so it's… We were at a party and there was a cutting board that people have brought stuff over on and I was like “that, I want that.” Basically, the cutting board…

Michelle

Wooden.

Joan

…was. The wooden cutting board was left on an electric stove that was turned on, so that spiral pattern was Shroud of Turin’ed on it. Was basically, you know, burnished onto it and I thought “This is a perfect placeholder [as a logo].” The idea of the words Bottoms Up Bagels… we had name and we had that image and while it's cringy at first to use that [cutting board image as a first logo], there's no need to spend all that money and time and effort until you know yourself and know your customer. It simply worked. It's just a minimally viable product in terms of branding and it was literally branded. So, there you go. It was branded.

Amanda 1: 23:52

Some people think of it as a chicken/egg situation, where one could go in front of the other, but we're not really sure. But I land solidly on the - “you have to start doing the thing for a while.” And it's good to have a stand-in whatever for as long as you can. But if you're going in completely assured of what you're doing and “this is going to be the brand and boom, boom, boom,” then bless you. But I suspect that 99.99 percent of the time something is going to be changing, and probably sooner than you think. 

Michelle: 24:25

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that is the thing about an MVP and like just learning to, to spend less and go more simple. You know you just don't know what it's really going to become. But having that logo in place and then coming up with the tagline you know that “Here’s to every day®” [BUB’s tagline] which for us, was like the perfect anchor to this idea of Bottoms Up Bagels, which is like this “cheers!” mentality. But for bagels, and also the ubiquitousness that we talked about - ubiquity that we talked about - of bagels being just kind of ordinary we didn't want them to be pretentious, we wanted them to be, you know, an everyday treat. And so, once that kind of became part of who we were, then we really got to embody it. And then a lot of these other creative things that we did really brought that home like, oh, we're going to celebrate today - we're going to do something silly, we're going to make something tasty, we're going to joke around with you when you come in before work, whatever it is. Like that's what this is, that's what this whole thing is about.

Amanda: 25:29

Next, you know we wanted to talk a little bit about of your exploration into video. Why would you want to consider video as a business owner?

Joan: 25:37

When it comes to social media, folks can take their own videos. They can have team members be part of that process. They can certainly reuse things that customers post, but at times I found it necessary and very helpful to have something that's more formal, that captures specific things besides, just like the special of the day or how the weather is outside or people taking pretty pictures with the food that you have. That's all good, but we were rounding the bend to year two of the business when we really wanted to capture what we do. We didn't want it to be traditional advertising, something that really felt like more commercial. So, we wanted to have people who work on documentaries, basically just to commission a documentary and to make sure it's like in reasonable bytes, but long enough for it to be able to be chopped up to be used for many different things. I think that's also a secret to maximizing like your dollar and just being practical about it. We sought out grads from Maryland Institute College of Art, which is an incredible fucking art school, and there's a lot of cool people in the world who have gone there, including Abbi Jacobson. You may guys may know her from many a thing, including which shows” Well… 

Michelle

She did the reboot of a League of Their Own. She had her whole sketch comedy series. 

Joan

When you have an amazing resource like an art school, and you have people who are looking for work as they're developing their portfolio and you have us, as a relatively nascent food business, coming out with a budget but like, not a huge budget. It can be a great thing to be able to pair with folks who are also starting out on their own, because, just as we were new, they were new. But it's also important to really get humble and realize that age doesn’t matter at that point. Was I older than these folks? Sure. Did I have that much, that many years and that many hours of experience creating video? Nope. 

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan

So, it's important to be able to defer to that and to be able to like communicate really well with people to explain what your needs are, to give them examples of what businesses are looking for - having a timeline, talking about objectives, when will we have deliverables [due], figuring out what points you can give feedback about something and then, at some point, just kissing it to God. And having trust, you know, after meeting with people, that you can just do something better together than either one or the other side could do. I put an ad out because there, it’s possible to do so within, like their university's network, which was awesome at the time to be able to give opportunities to current students and grads. And then, uh yeah, we met with somebody who answered the ad and it was a fantastic meeting.

Michelle: 28:17

The fact that we knew that we wanted to do it as documentary style, I think was really helpful because we were able to attract the right kind of, in this case director who, you know, had done things obviously all through school and, and done things on his own. But really this was probably one of the first times a complete outside entity was going to be like “okay, we'll trust you with this,” you know? And so, understanding not only that that's the style that we were looking for, but why was that also helpful? Because a lot of times you know people want things, but if, if it doesn't make sense or you think “actually, I should…I mean, you're a food business, you'd really be better served if I just did these, this type of thing.” So, to have that back and forth of understanding that for us it was really important to show our process, because that was our uh differentiator as a business, especially at the time we were, um, one of the few bagel places in town and we were doing everything from scratch every time. And to have somebody who could be with us in the kitchen to document our process to you know, do some interviews about what made sense, to watch us delivering to wholesale partners. Um, we really wanted that kind of like 360 perspective of the business at that point in time because in some ways we were almost really just introducing ourselves to the world two, two years in. 

Joan: 29:36

And they're [the filmmakers are] the first audience. I mean, they did not know about the craft, so I was also hopeful to separately understand different things that we were doing, or things that I wasn't seeing because I was too busy doing them.

Amanda: 29:55

It's really nice when you have clients who know what they want and that you're not taking stabs in the dark and guessing. Because, you know, I mean, that's why I'm saying new business owners, take note, listen to what you're hearing here. There are deliverables that are expected, there's a vibe that is expected, there's a style that's expected, and I think that it's so helpful to you know you hire a creative on to do things to help you out. They can only drive so much of it. And if they are the driving force behind what your message is going to be or what your deliverable is going to be, and then you go and blame them when the result is not what you want it to be, it's a loss for everybody. It's a loss for you. It's a loss for the creative that it's so important to go in with some sort of vision of what is this thing going to be and, if you're not totally crystal clear on it, to be accepting of the fact that there's going to be some growing pains. There's going, it's going to take some time and it's not going to happen immediately. So that's just my thought from the vendor point of view that… 

Michelle

Yeah

Amanda

… you know, it's so good to know, so definitely know before you reach out to, you know, your even your local college, you know arts program. And you think, “oh, they’re students, they'll just know,” know what you want, it’s just going to make it easier for everybody.

Joan: 31:15

That's true, without putting a choke chain on the creative as well. Like leaving room for that third thing that can only happen the two of you work together. Also leaving room for like working together again, you know?

Amanda

Yeah.

Joan

I mean, there's always a little bit of helpfulness if you really kind of like vibe with people and like the pricing is okay and people like the art that you're putting out or the product you're putting out. That's great for continued work. It makes it easier because you get to know each other, so things become easier and faster and better and you push each other differently when you have that trust.

Michelle: 31:46

Yeah, and I mean without jumping too far ahead. I think you know that's exactly why when it came time to do BUB TV during COVID, we went to that same crew because we had built up that mutual trust and respect for where each one was coming from, and learned how to work together and compromise and all that kind of stuff. And it made it really fun when we were wanting to do this even more bizarre thing [laughs] that had nothing to do with bagels on the face of it.

Amanda: 32:16

Yeah, I want to hear more about this, right?

Michelle: 32:19

Absolutely. 

Joan

100%.

Amanda: 32:22

Yeah, so why?

Michelle: 32:23

So, why have parody videos?

Amanda: 32:25

Why my friends? Why? Yes.

Joan: 32:28

Well, we certainly had money for like an advertising line item, because no one was going anywhere or doing anything. But people were on their computers and their tablets and their phones and people were diving into streaming services. So why not dive into whatever TV we're putting out there?

Michelle: 32:47

Yeah, so it was really something that came out of the real meat of COVID. Like, I mean, Joan had the idea in the fall of 2020. And we started talking with the production guys and fleshing it out a little bit and did some filming that fall and the winter/spring of 2021. And it was a three- part series which was meant to be and we called it BUB TV. And it was parody videos that were ultimately marketing Bottoms Up Bagels but playing on different things that we thought would be entertaining or, at the very least, like fun to watch to get people's attention. We were also fairly new in the shop at that time, so it was a chance to also remind people that we were there because, you know, everyone was in their own altered reality at that time. And so, habits - whether it was like coming into the shop or knowing we had delivery. I think the first one ends with like “don't be a stranger,” because we were just, like we felt the need to - Joan's pointing to me because I was the one in the bizarre outfit for that [video]. 

Joan

Michelle, please. 

Michelle

I take direction well.

Joan: 33:56

Well, I will say you, I mean you've done acting classes, clearly. I should say it was a take, it was a spoof on a Romper Room and Michelle was the Miss Molly. Granted, wherever you were geographically there were different Misses. So…

Amanda: 34:12

So, there was a, there was a Romper Room beyond the tri-state…

Michelle

Yeah, and we realized that when we…

Amanda: 34:18

… New York, New Jersey. 

Michelle

Yeah, and there was like a Miss Sarah and a Miss Amy and yeah, we… 

Joan

Mind blown. Okay, go to duckduckgo. Figure that out. I’ll give you a moment.

Michelle

Where’s that sponsorship bucks [from duckduckgo], man?

Amanda: 34:32

I thought this was just for us. I thought it was just for us, I thought it was me and her, and that was it?

Michelle: 34:38

I thought so, too. 

Joan

Lies!

Amanda

Wow. 

Michelle

Yeah. 

Amanda

Wow. 

Michelle

So, the, real quick, that… 

Amanda

Poor Gen X. 

Michelle

Yeah, if you're a Gen Xer, you know well. So, Miss Molly, would, you know… It was the show called Romper Room and it was for kids, and at the end of every episode she would look into a mirror, like a handheld kind of mirror, and call out different names. And if you were a kid at that time, you wanted… She's like “I see Amanda, and I see Joan, and I see Michelle.” 

Amanda

She never said “Amanda.” 

Michelle

She never said those things.

Amanda

She never said “Amanda!” 

Joan: 35:07

Never said “Joan.”

Michelle: 35:10

But you were there expectantly, like, waiting for that. And so… 

Amanda

Yeah. 

Michelle

Joan's idea was you know, there's this tool, for you know that I use for making bagels, which is a skimmer. And it's about you know, a 12-inch diameter mesh thing, that…

Amanda

Oh no. 

Michelle

And so, it was kind of a take on a cauldron - that this is where the collaboration with the people who helped us make it came up with, and so. But the idea is that I would look into this skimmer and say I “see these people” and I would name customers, because you know, this is like this is the dark times of COVID, and so you know who knows? Again, how many people got it? I have no idea, but it ended with like, “you know, whether you come by the shop or we deliver to you, don't be a stranger.” And it was just you know something that promoted us and the new shop but also made the point of like “we miss you guys and we see you,” which is comes back to common threads for us as well.

Joan: 36:14

Okay, one thing about Romper Room. Okay, kids? All right, listen up. As the bitter Gen-Xer here - that may be redundant to some regard. But that's Miss Molly, or whoever's your Romper Room host. Again, they're different ones, guys, just let that rock you to sleep. 

Michelle

[laughs]

Joan

It was your way of being seen. It was. I mean, we had that phrase that we've been using, like recently, in the vernacular, but that was the original way of being seen, in some regard, as a kid, is just having her say your name. But she did not…

Michelle

…for me anyway. 

Michelle: 36:48

So, that’s what, that was the spirit of these videos. And then there were two others and these developed. You know, we had to develop user personas. Who are we trying to reach with the? You know, you go through the whole process.

Joan

But there are two others [BUB TV videos] in the COVID times, but it has like continued on. I will say and I'm proud of that, but I wanted to do - because I have no problem poking fun at myself - I wanted to do a version to talk about our delivery. And I thought the concept of “Contactless versus No Contact” weere kind of like butting against each other in terms of like just playing with both of them. Obviously, delivery should be no contact at that time, but then there's also so much talk at the era and so now of going no contact with people who are not healthy to be around you. So, I wanted to make sure we could mash up and somewhat confuse those two concepts in our “Contactless versus No Contact” [video], in which case my ego gets bruised because one customer doesn't just want to go contactless, she wants to go no contact.

Michelle: 37:48

So, Joan is like texting her, saying like her delivery is there and she's, like “I said, no contact!” Like, don't text me.

Joan                      

[laughs]

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan: 37:56

You gotta see it, guys. I promise you it's worth it, it’s worth the time.

Michelle: 37:59

And during COVID with this great crew, we're like filming in different neighborhoods in the city and like just getting to showcase different things.

Joan: 38:09

Customers are like “I can't be at my home today to pretend to be this person, but please use my grounds. Go over to like my house and film there.” 

Amanda

That’s funny.

Michelle

I thought you were going to go next to foraging. 

Joan

Foraging was such a big fucking deal during the pandemic, I mean, amiright?

Amanda: 38:23

Yes, it was. Amongst the hipsters. Yes, yes, and beyond.

Joan: 38:29

Right, Joan Kanner aging hipster here. So I… or aged. So, I was like… 

Michelle

#aginghipster

Joan

…what could we find in the woods? And I'm not going to do this, not going to be a spoiler alert for that, you guys would just have to watch it. Just know, there are plenty of mushrooms that I found [in the Foraging video] and I definitely give some straight talk about making sure you're eating things or collecting things you're foraging that will not kill you. But then at the end, surprise! I mean there's a twist in terms of what I forage for. 

Michelle

That’s right.

Amanda: 39:02

Go check it out.

proofingstage.com

Amanda: 39:05

Your goal sounds like it was to make people feel seen and to connect with them in some way. Did you feel as though it happened? And if it, whether it did or didn't, what was gained?

Michelle

Good question.

Joan: 39:16

Well, we employed the talents of some customers, kind of… Because it was difficult with people's - believe it or not their schedules were still like off the hook and crazy; with some team members, especially for the “Contactless versus No Contact” scenario. Personally, I gained a lot of knowledge about how to storyboard and how to like really work through some of these ideas with people who do the visual aspect. I learned to take direction, I learned to produce and then we kept on doing that. It wasn't really meant to be a financial windfall but it was, in that point, really just had to be about the engagement piece. If we got more delivery based on that, that's fantastic, but to me it was just about the process and learnings and working with really cool, interesting people who are very talented.

Michelle: 40:06

I think it did bring business, though. I think it did bring people to the shop. I mean, people weren't really coming, they were coming into order but leaving at that point and certainly increased our delivery. But yeah, I think again, going back to brand, I feel like at the business level it's cemented our brand a little bit more. You know what I mean? It was like this business is who I think it is, even though I don't know if I could have articulated what I thought it was. I don't know if that makes sense? But it's just kind of like “I didn't know I was going to get this and I didn't know I was going to want this. But yeah, [I’m] okay that they're doing this.”

Amanda: 40:41

It goes back to that “Show, Don't Tell,” when you went into the kitchens in the Midwest and you showed them that you were able to do the thing that you said that you were able to do. I think that these little nods to “no, no, really, this is who I am.” It creates greater connection.

Michelle: 41:00

Yeah, yeah, it's like you're selling something, but you're also like you're laughing at yourself. I mean, you know these [videos] are ridiculous. And I think the ability to show that we don't take ourselves too seriously and, at the same time, we're going through this whole clearly like production process to create this thing - which is in itself a serious endeavor to try to do. It's like that holding those things at the same time and I think that is what Bottoms Up Bagels has always been. We're really serious about it, we do the work, we overthink it all, but we also just want to goof around with our customers when they come through the door, or we just want to deliver the main thing that we do really well. It's like this balance of like really serious about the work and also not too serious about ourselves.

Joan: 41:50

You're describing our customers or us? And I say that because just this process of having this business and seeing who really is a good fit - besides liking our food, it goes beyond that. It's a bunch of really highly educated, quirky, funny people, of diverse backgrounds. People, but they all have this slight edge to them, and they can manage to tell you what's up and be direct with you if you miss that day in terms of a product, in terms of execution, and they can tell it to you in a way of like “I'm going to be around, but I'm going to make sure that you know about this.” They're not delicate in their feedback, but they do it out of love and caring. And, again, they're just wicked, smart and opinionated and consistently there. So, when we do these things, it just reminds me that what will be put out there is being received by people, and I mean like more than just our food, but like these creative things that we've done, these pursuits, it's just been like the circle of reflecting each other.

Amanda: 42:50

You know, I live in a homogenized suburb…

Joan

[laughs]

Amanda

… in, you know, north of Cincinnati and it's been very, very hard to find my people. Period. And I think that a lot of people do a lot of hiding. And, every once in a while, you meet somebody and you're like “I think I see in you what you see in me.” But there's no place here for those people to meet each other or to gather. And people are so afraid to put themselves out there as their real and authentic selves that they are unable to attract the people who are their people. And it's interesting to see that you're doing that as a business and you're doing… And it goes back to those Peace Corps days, it goes back to all of it that can the connection in the community and the energy that you're attracting. You have to put it out there and I think that's what the creativity is all about and how people are just so scared to put it out there, especially in regions where, you know, people are being brought together by universities and corporate entities. I mean, the, P&G runs this place, so you've got a lot of people who are not really thinking very much more than “I'm coming to this place because of a job.” And it's really hard to find other people if you don't create these spaces. So, I'm just saying future entrepreneurs, think about creating these spaces, think about putting yourself out there, because it sounds like you're attracting the kind of energy that you want, because you're telling people who you are.

Joan: 44:12

Yeah, generally, yes, in terms of customer. I think, where it's been difficult, at least for me, to find like an artistic playmate sometimes in these scenarios, something like the folks we did a lot of these videos with, they're incredible, but they we stopped working together because it just stopped working, you know? In some ways like they disbanded as a team of two and that's gonna happen, and for me it's more important to be understood than loved. So, hearing you, Amanda, it's interesting to hear about finding your like, your people. I feel like I haven't quite. I found that in fits and starts, but not consistently. But the customers, yes, but in terms of people to collaborate with it's eh… When it happens it's really great, but it seems to be super finite.

Michelle: 44:57

Yeah, and I think it goes back to what we were talking about in Episode One, which is the isolation of being the entrepreneur and the creator sometimes. Because you're absolutely right, Amanda, I think we managed to find and create, I think it was this kind of mutuality-reciprocity cycle with our customers. We managed to attract what we were putting out, which is like - just have a moment for chef's kiss on that - because you know, it doesn't always happen and it's the reason why we just grinded it out for as long as we did in that location. We certainly, I think, needed more of those people and needed to have a balance of, from the business side, like people who were just passing through and like they're not going to get all that in one encounter, even though you know you're trying your best to provide that. Finding our people as customers being a business is invaluable and absolutely I would encourage anybody who's starting out or just going at it to just keep that in mind. But the adjacent point to that is like you also got to find your people for yourself as an entrepreneur and as a business owner and I think that's kind of what Joan’s alluding to. Which is, like this weird thing like for so long, our customers were the only thing driving us, and that should be the case, you know, and team, of course, but what puts stuff back in for you as a professional, what puts stuff back in for you as a, what helps you stretch and grow in your own craft, you know? Whether that is like the comedy side of it or just the food making side of it, or the marketing side of it, you know? And that's, I think, the balance that we're striving for now. Is to say like “We can make this great product. We know who our customers are. We love giving them what they're looking for. We love learning from them and taking their feedback. We also need more people to play with who are in our, in our professions or in our fields, in our industry. That can help us be our best selves.” And that's yeah, that's, that's, I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's a lifelong pursuit.

Amanda: 46:57

Right? Absolutely. And yeah, everything is finite. Honestly, you know?

Michelle

Yeah.

Amanda

And I mean, I've just learned to be so grateful for when the tide comes in… 

Michelle

Precisely. 

Amanda

…and frolicking, and then when the tide goes out, it's like “that was good.”

Joan: 47:12

Yep.

Amanda: 47:13

So, let's look, look for the next, look for the next wave, right? So, yeah… 

Amanda

You know, if someone's just walking down the street, there are ways that you can express what you are and who you are on your signage. Some people decide to just slap up a sign and be done with it. Y'all took a different path with your facade, yeah?

Michelle

Yeah.

Joan: 47:37

And that's because, you know, we, we're renting [a physical location] and we can do something with it. When we were in the shared kitchen - I think Michelle alluded to this in that earlier episode about it - you couldn't even put up, you couldn't even have flyers or things for your team to reference, you know? You just didn't own that space. It's not like being in high school, and you having a locker to put your picture of John Stamos [up]. I'm looking at you, Amanda.

Michelle: 47:58

John Stamos!

Amanda: 48:01

No, no, no, it was John Cusack. You got the wrong John. It was John Cusack.

Joan: 48:05

Ha! I got the truth out of you. 

Amanda

Lloyd Dobler. Forever.

Joan: 48:08

I thought you were trying to hide it?

Amanda

Seriously, and I am not ashamed. Not ashamed. Go on. Yes…

Joan: 48:13

Right. With the BUB Hub beta, we wanted to make sure that, because we are also in a part of the city that did not have as much interest, I guess, to put it like mildly - we covered that already.

Michelle: 48:23

Visually, yeah.

Joan: 48:24

Just visual interest. We wanted to stand out in the best way possible, but also with people being on their phone so much, to be able to make sure that the physical building was interactive. And we thought about doing that even before COVID, before we can actually have people inside. You wanted people to be able to be outside, be able to take a picture of their sandwich, a picture of themselves, to know what they were getting into before approaching the building. And to that end, the first step was making sure that we could get the building essentially wrapped, but we needed to have an artist figure out what to put on those three sides.

Michelle: 48:59

So, we had a muralist and then we had our designer, who had actually worked with a well, a different designer than [for] our logo, but the one who had worked with us on some of the film stuff. And so, in some cases the muralist will just come up with the concept and go to town. In this case we had this - it wasn't really a collaboration - but it was kind of in two parts. We worked with the designer on the actual storefront - what would be painted on there, and then the muralist made it happen. And I have to say it's pretty amazing to both of those parties to be able to, you know, on one hand, create something that was, you know, we went back to our brand in terms of mid-century modern. We wanted something to stand out, but we wanted it to make sense. We wanted the side mural so, as Joan said, people could take pictures. And, but it's one thing, as any and anybody who needs to implement the design of a designer will tell you… [laughs] it doesn't always translate, right?

Amanda

No. No.

Michelle

And so, credit, like I said, to - on both sides of that process - because what ended up on the building was pretty dang close to what was put together in Photoshop, you know? And this is, I will shout out to that here are facade grants in many cities, in many towns across the country that are either part of those Main Street programs or, even if you're outside of a Main Street, there's often a matching grant through either a city entity or quasi-city entity that can help you with things like this for just this specific purpose - to take what was a gray box and make it into a bright, colorful, lively place. And so that's what we wanted to do was stand out in a good way, and, also, we really felt like we had a lot of work to do to show people that there was something there, because people were so used to driving by and just not having anything to see. I mean, we were there for two years and people were like, “oh, this place just came…” 

Amanda

[laughs]

Michelle

You know? Like people were just like tunnel, tunnel visioned. And so, you know, we had “bagels,” “catering,” “lox,” “coffee,” like all painted in there. We had, you know, “boiled and baked fresh” on the side. People still come in and be like “what do you sell here?” 

Amanda

[laughs]

Michelle

Like, you know? Which is human nature. But, um…

Joan: 51:15

Representation of colors, because the designer - to me - he gets most of the props on this because he met with us, understood… Yes, we had worked together before, which was important. This is a completely different project for him, different for us, entirely brand new, scary in some ways, and he's like “I'm gonna use like this hex code because this represents and this pattern that represents the salmon and the striations of the really artistic take on like just the muscular patterns of a slice of lox.” And it's insane to me, like what he was able to do to translate for someone else to like slap on and paint, even though that's hard in its own way, right? But just hearing us, being heard by the artist, but still leaving space for that person to do what they do and trusting - that is imperative. And to Michelle's point about like those grants, you know you could have just done something really simple, just like done like our base colors and like put them on. It would have looked okay. But we try to like maximize every opportunity and like push things beyond the limits that people normally have for that, to the point where the grantors took pictures of our building and they put as part of their… 

Michelle

Annual report. 

Joan

Annual report. That says something.

Amanda

It does.

Michelle: 52:32

We really wanted it to be a community space and this was just one way to accomplish that. So, and then related, we had thought you know, it's funny. Joan, having more of like a technical background had always talked about also using like VR, like virtual reality triggers, and things like related to. We never incorporated them in the shop. We did that on, like some ornaments that we sent out last year where you, like you know, hold your phone over and you see, like a golden bagel pop up, you know, and there's…

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan

AR [augmented reality].

Michelle

So, there are ideas that we had a long before, like you know, just to be able to create intrigue from people walking by and things like that. And another big piece of that was the mural that we wanted to do in support of… 

Joan: 53:18

The window mural! Yeah, at the time there were two artists specifically who were painting Black Lives Matter on different transom and other windows for people's residential homes in Baltimore City. And not only were they doing that, they were donating their time - adding this beautiful art to people's homes. No offense to those, you know. paper signs, but this was something that transcended that in terms of the artistry. 

Amanda

Mmm, hmmm.

Joan

And they would take the money you would give them for that and donate it to different organizations that supported the community…

Amanda

That’s cool.

Joan

…which is exceptionally cool. And really very talented folks. And I knew that… I was following these people and I thought “we have two massive and very intentional picture windows for the BUB Hub beta.” But we wanted to do something different and I knew that with the shop opening it was going to be around Mother's Day, which led me to think “well, who was the mother, really, of like LGBTQ plus movement in the US?” And it was Black trans women. Period. Period. Period. Period. Right? All kinds of…

Amanda: 54:19

Well, Stonewall.

Joan: 54:22

I mean beyond that, you know? 

Michelle

And who are still suffering, you know, at greater proportions, right, I mean?

Amanda: 54:32

Absolutely.

Joan: 54:33

Yeah, like how many women die in a year? Black trans women more so than like any other women any other, like Black folk generally. And they sacrificed so much for me to have the rights that I have as a queer person. So how can we at least like give some sort of a nod, but also, knowing that we are down the block from Baltimore Safe Haven, knowing that a lot of our customers were trans, knowing that some of our staff was trans, but just trying to go beyond the Black Lives Matter to being really specific and hyper focused to bring that to other people's consciousness and awareness? And we met with these two artists and they said “You know what? We're going to do, these words, but we're going to also have the outline, the silhouettes of people in different colors representing a parade, a parade celebrating this concept.” And woo, they fucking knocked it out of the park. 

Michelle: 55:25

And with something, like that, you then create an event in and of itself with the painting of the thing. You know like it's. It's like we're posting in real time. They're posting in real time. This thing is going up. People are walking by. “Ooh, what's going on?” It's on a day that we're open, like there's just an energy there, and we didn't. I'll touch briefly on it because we didn't get to do so. But when we're talking about the documentary, one of the other things that we did was we wanted to have like a screening of it when it was done. And so, we decided, timing-wise, to pair that with our second anniversary as a business. And so, that then “we're like okay, how can we involve more, more people, not just customers. How can we involve more collaborators?” So, there's a[n] immensely talented group of classically trained musicians in Baltimore that had been part of their like. Their brand was they'd be like somebody would be painting a mural somewhere else and they would be playing music while it was happening. Or doing an event, like they would be doing all these experiential things, and so we approached them. We said, “hey, we want to show this video. We're going to be doing it at this local brewery. We're going to be selling bagels. It's going to be a thing. We really want you guys to play. [laughs] What do you think about creating an original score to go with this, this nine-minute doc?”

Amanda: 56:47

Oh, wow. 

Joan: 56:49

And they played it live. Their name is Pique Collective. They still have events to this day.

Michelle: 56:54

So that's just like another example of like creating, like the energy created around our second anniversary wasn't about BUB being a business for two years alone, right? It was about what was happening in that room when all these random people came to either just get a beer, or just get a bagel, or watch a video or listen to a group play, you know? Like and, and so just talking about the painting of that mural and the day that it was actually going up reminded me of that scene at the brewery when we were doing that window, I'm just kind of like… 

Joan

The window murals.

Michelle

…and so that goes back to the bagel line for us too, right? It's just like: “Where's the space where these kind of interactions can happen?” Sometimes it happens organically, but oftentimes you at least need to. You need to feed it with something you know you need to, to put the seeds down and then see what happens.

Amanda: 57:48

I also love how, you know, having paintings on the windows is a very Long Island thing, and delis and stuff like that. Very, very traditional…

Joan

Yessss…

Amanda

If you're walking by a Long Island bagel shop - and oftentimes car dealership…

Joan

True. Facts.

Amanda

…you get these muralists to paint the windows and that's just. That's like the hardcore DNA of bagels and delis is these…

Michelle

I didn’t think about that. 

Amanda

So yeah, yeah, it's a natural kind of, um…

Michelle

Yeah, it is. 

Michelle: 58:21

I'm smiling so big right now.

Amanda: 58:25

Yeah, you didn't remember, but yes, it's there. It's, it's deep in there. Um, so I think this is an interesting place to transition over to audio. Let's talk about these ads, guys, because… 

Joan

Jealous much? [laughs]

Amanda

Oh, my god. So, yes.

Michelle

Mickey Two Fingers?

Amanda

So, oh, my goodness. So, you know, Joan like “yeah, and I've got these ideas for ads” and I'm like, “oh my god, what, what, what is even happening?” [Joan is like] “And I think that every episode should have a fake sponsor…”

Speaker 3: 58:58

Wait, they’re faux? Shit. Oh, shit. [laughs]

Amanda 1: 59:03

So, and “…and I've got a list.” And I'm like, “oh, I’m like okay…” So, so let's let this rip. So, so tell me more about, tell me more about the sponsors, let's, let's hear more about the sponsors, Joan.

Joan: 59:17

Using a critical lens, as I always have, I wanted to make sure - hearting you right back, Amanda. We’re “Kenning” each other right now, which is awesome…

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan

… because I am “Kenough.” For Season One, it was, practically speaking, one hell of a decision to say “we're not even going to seek out sponsors.” People may or may not know that when you podcast, if you have a certain number of listeners - which we do have, thank goodness -you're able to get ads, but you may not be in control of who those ads are from. And I, I cannot be easily bought…

Amanda

[laughs]

Joan

… and in terms of like, I would not want to sell things to certain people, to our listeners who are readers, for people who do [read] the, the transcripts only. We're really mindful of who we put in front of you and without proper vetting, we wouldn't want to do that. And I really appreciate podcasts like Maintenance Phase that don't have sponsors at all ever. And then they avoid issues with places like Noom, which is a diet, by the way. Um, and that has been sued majorly in federal courts. Um, I’m trying to think who else… BetterHelp. And I'm just saying that's for other people. I, if people want to take money from those, from those places and they feel like that's an appropriate ad for their business to put in front of their audience, that's totally fine. That's their choice. But for Season One, we really don't know fully who our audience is, even now on the last episode. And we want to be very mindful of who you put out there. I mean, throughout these episodes I'm sure people heard us talk about different food businesses, food and beverage businesses in Baltimore city and other places. So, we have, have lived and worked and, like we, like I know too much, there's some places I don't even go to because I know things that they have been up to. So, it's really important for us to vet. So, in place of that, I thought, “okay, let me go ahead and have some creative stretches and make ads for things that we we know and love and need, things that we need.” But these are not real businesses yet. If people want to partner with me on them, that's totally fine. I mean the Campaign to Decriminalize Carbs? It should be a Super PAC.

Amanda

[laughs]

Michelle: 1:01:26

Right? Yeah. Caper Lovers International, I'll give it… I mean, we're very close to a different country right now, for this recording, and I will say that the people up here love capers on both sides of the border. 

Joan

We're close to Oh, Canada.

Michelle

We're already, but no, and it's not to say we, I mean we will be seeking sponsors and ways to monetize, obviously, in order to make this viable for the long term.

Amanda: 1:02:00

I, I had reached out to my, my vast, vast, vast network of non-entrepreneurs on LinkedIn…

Joan

[laughs] Oh, snap!

Michelle

[laughs]

Amanda

It is what it is, folks, you know? It's all right. I, I reach out and Michelle reaches back and says, “yeah, actually let's talk a little bit about you know, possibly working together.” And then I mentioned that I podcast and you were talking about how, “yeah, we wanted to explore what had been happening between the, the big, the very beginning of BUB, the closure of BUB [Hub Beta].” And then you would talk about this, this new phase, this, this resting phase, and how it was an active rest. And you wanted to be very clear about the fact that this was active and talking about business and growing business and not really sure about… I mean - I'm gonna be very candid - not being really sure about what was coming next, and trying to figure that out, and making it into a podcast. So, it was a very, this active pause is kind… I feel like the toast at the beginning of this episode was the first celebratory anything. Because we were in a place where you had to pick a name before having a thing… 

Michelle

Mmm, hmmm.

Amanda

…and that it's that branded cutting board is kind of what we started with. And our first episodes were - I hate it, hell - the first episodes never aired. 

Michelle

Yeah, many.

Joan

Yeah.

Amanda

We have tons of footage… 

Joan

[laughs]

Amanda

Footage? Of recordings, tons of recordings that just have never seen the light of day or the ears of our listeners. And this is, and it was new for me because when I started podcasting it was just me, myself and I with a guest. And I kind of framed it and then we sort of launched and Michelle and Joan, as you may imagine, are different kind of clients in that regard, because they bring a level of creativity where they're gonna give me room to move, but there's still a hope and an expectation and a vision. So, this has been fascinating for me coming into all of this. And yeah, I mean, initially, what was your expectation for a podcast before we started all of this? I mean, was there any expectation?

Michelle: 1:04:36

Well, I will say, especially prior to reaching out to you, no. And I think that's the really beautiful thing about responding to those kinds of questions that people put out there, like in terms of people either looking for new clients or looking to explore a different avenue for their business. We [Joan and I] had always talked about a book or an op-ed, or there's stuff that we've been clearly saving up and talking about ourselves and wondering how to package and put out there - both for telling kind of our story, but also for being as transparent as we feel like we can be about trying to figure this out right now. And so, with you putting out there like, “hey, this is something I'm looking for,” or whatever, and knowing that you were in this world [of podcasting]. But not deeply at all, that I have an understanding of what your skills were, and so just saying, “hey, let's talk.” I don't even think when we reached out to you, we were even looking for anything. I think it was just like “let's get a sense of skill sets and let's get a sense of where you're at and where it is in between place. Maybe we could do some work together down the line.” And then learning what you could do, and then, simultaneously, I think we had an event and we came back and, like we were kind of talking through our own need to, I think, move on in a different kind of way. And it became clear that this platform, meaning podcasting, might be the way to do it. But I don't think, without understanding, that you could help us do it. that would have been a thought. And so I really have so much gratitude for that. But the expectation was about building a bridge. We know that there's somewhere we need to get to. I don't even know if we're closer than we were, but we're not there yet. But in order to get there from here, we needed a bridge, and so my expectation for this podcast was to create that bridge and, secondarily, to capture our experience and third, if not, 2B, to hopefully attract and collect people with similar experiences, to be able to form connections.

Joan: 1:06:52

There are a lot of snake oil salespersons when it comes to giving guidance for entrepreneurship. And, of course, catharsis was a major reason for starting the pod, which we've said. However, for me there's been such a gap in terms of who has reliable information and support. And I think about where else we could be eight years into the business if we had those things. So, much like when we realized that excellent bagels and lox and schmear and brisket, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, sausages, yada, yada were missing from the food world where we were - and also in tertiary markets and other places. [And we worked to fill that need.] For me, those people are. Basically, I wanna make sure that we can be that for other people, but that's also missing. But I also know, based on my background, including my professional background before doing food, is that you really need to demonstrate your competency to find the people who you will work well with. So, in part, Season One is to explain what we experienced just for our own selves and retelling it and having you Amanda also help, pulling out stuff for us and adding in your own experience. But then we also have to lay the groundwork for, “yes, we are competent, yes, we had the experience. Here's the press of the experience. But this is also like how we do things.” And I'm really not going to skirt around different issues or not curse or whatever. This is like who I am. I'm firmly this person and when it comes to working with other people who have been in our situation, I feel like that's been missing and this is also what you're getting.

Amanda: 1:08:44

And now a word from an actual sponsor. Wait… what?

[sponsor ad from That’s How We Role Podcast]

Avis Boone, Host of the That’s How We Role Podcast: 1:08:52

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[sponsor ad ends]

Amanda: 1:09:47

To give a little teaser into the Season Two, because we've talked about it a bit and hopefully this will be what manifests…

Joan

[laughs]

Amanda

…at least that's my hope. Is making it a little bit more like this particular episode, where we'll sprinkle in bits of the past but then to talk more about the things that budding entrepreneurs and existing entrepreneurs need to hear and to also kind of create those connections and community. So that if you have a question about - I don't know - grants. And you've heard us talking about grants. Maybe we do a bit of a deep dive into grants, and we talk to somebody who knows more about grants. You know, these kind of subjects that lack the mentorship - and sometimes we just don't have time for the mentorship, either - to be able to hear and to give voice to these concerns for entrepreneurs and to make us all better. That's really exciting to me.

Joan: 1:10:35

I love the idea of sharing the gory bits with people, and my mistakes. Because I wish I had more people to learn from, not being from the field, but then also having it be very competitive and again like having people pretend to be mentors, but like not really be. I feel like filling that gap of people who have been there and done that. It's gonna be like, at some point, examples we're gonna share with you - and sometimes we do get it right. We'll share that, too. But it’s so much cheaper and saves time. It's easier to learn from other people's mistakes than making them on your own.

Michelle: 1:11:03

Yeah, and I think, doing it in your own voice, right? That's been the whole point of this project and I think one of the things that I can say has very much - I've transformed throughout - even you know, the last several months of doing this project. Where, you know, I think even when we started, there was still this sense of “okay, so this is what I really think, and this is what I have to share. But if I, you know, wanna be heard in certain ways, it needs to be this level of polished, or it needs to be this level of tested, or it needs to be this level of pew, pew, pew…” Which I'll often do. Which I think you know what that means, but… 

Joan

She was finger gunning people. She was finger gunning. 

Amanda

Mmm, hmmm.

Michelle

But, like, but that's part of the problem, right? Is that, that's one way of speaking, but it's not the only way. And I think, because it's the dominant way in our culture, we have all been trained to try to measure up to that. Hence the meritocracy, hence the all the things we've talked about throughout the season. We've been trained to try to reach that when that's not who we are, and that's not maybe what's gonna work best for us, to put it mildly, you know? And so, the wonderful thing about podcasting, or just about the time and culture we're living in now, is that there are all these subcultures, there are all these subgroups. I mean, for worse rather than better sometimes, but there's room for everyone. Everyone can have a platform to share their thoughts and their ideas and their experience, and it's all valid. You know, you get to choose what you wanna take in. You get to choose what works for you. You get to choose what you wanna share and amplify. But there's no, there doesn't have to be “Get in the back of the line. It's not your turn yet.” You know, and that's, for me, the magic of this process and, I think, the hope for going forward. I mean, when we started we didn't even know there would be a second season. You know, and right now we're talking about like these great, like “under-known” people that we can have on as guests in these areas that we've talking about. That are also gonna talk about it straight, you know? We all have professions that we're trying… You know we all have reputations. We're not like trying to do anything in negative spirit, but you have to be real…

Amanda

Of course.

Michelle

… and that's the only way, go back to find your people. Like the only way you're gonna find your people is if you put out who you really are. 

Michelle

So, I guess I just wanna thank everyone for coming along with us on this ride this season and for listening and following the show and subscribing.  Please, if you like what you're hearing, share it. And if you would leave us a review, it's gonna be really helpful for us, as we gear up for Season Two, to have testimonies of people who like what they're hearing and, of course, feedback. You can send it through proofingstage.com, but if you leave a review wherever you listen to pods, that would be awesome. We have so appreciated putting this together for you, and we really hope that this is just the beginning of the conversation.

Joan: 1:14:13

And now for something completely different. Puppets! Puppets! Puppets!

Amanda

Oh, God. [laughs]

Speaker 1: 1:14:22

For additional information, including notice and disclaimer, music credits, episode notes and more, check out our website: proofingstage.com.