Wait, Business Ops Can Feel Good?

Veronica Yanhs, Founder of Business Laid Bare & Creator of the Orgasmic Operations® Method

What do Star Wars and Aladdin have in common? For Veronica Yanhs, founder of Business Laid Bare and creator of the Orgasmic Operations® Method, they’re the start of her journey into blending kink with business operations. She joins hosts Michelle Bond and Joan Kanner to discuss her unconventional brand and the power in tightening up your business operations to achieve business growth and profitability - not to mention peace of mind!

Operations are the lifeblood of any business, and Veronica breaks down why they’re the “how” that makes the “what” possible. She paints a vivid picture of transforming a needy business “baby” into a self-sufficient “adult,” running smoothly without constant hand-holding.

Veronica also delves into a human-centric approach to operations, emphasizing that treating people right and playing to their strengths leads to better outcomes. She also offers the top tools for a basic tech stack for streamlining your processes and keeping your team on the same page. Knowledge management and email marketing are just the beginning, but less can be more!

Join us for a bold exploration of how authenticity and operational savvy drive business success. 

• Building a business that you love day in and day out
• Knowing your audience and embracing your #freakflag
• Necessity of operations for corporations, small businesses and side hustles
• Changing the trajectory of operations-related losses
• Rethinking Spaciousness in work and life
• Understanding the value of a good email marketing list
• How to work best with an outside Ops team

Veronica’s unconventional perspective and no-nonsense advice make it a must-listen for any entrepreneur looking to supercharge their operations while staying true to their vision.

Links

Connect with Veronica Yanhs:

Business Laid Bare: www.businesslaidbare.com
Veronica Yanhs Instagram: www.instagram.com/veronicayanhs/
Business Laid Bare Instagram: www.instagram.com/businesslaidbare/
Veronica Yanhs LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/veronicayanhs/

Theme Music by Thorn Haze

Additional Music by: nojisuma (via Pixabay), Keyframe Audio (via Pixabay), and nickpanek620 (via Pixabay)

Podcast Cover Art by Lisa Orye 

Ad written and performed by Joan Kanner

Ad music Fupicat (via Pixabay)

Executive Producers, Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

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Transcript

Joan Kanner (00:00.11)
How Jafar did you go? 

Veronica Yanhs
So definitely it was Aladdin. And I didn't think about this until maybe I was like 18 or in my 20s, like during college. I like, I'm curious, like where this kink journey originated from or how far back. Like definitely Star Wars when Leia was captured by Jabba the Hutt. Like I burned out the VHS tape on that, rewinding that scene. But then like I distinctly remembered when I was, when Aladdin first came out and I was like "Look, mom, I really want to be red Jasmine for Halloween." Because I wanted to be like shackled, taken hostage and thrown into an hourglass by Jafar. And every year my mom would be like, "there's only blue Jasmine outfits, baby." And I was like, "this sucks."

[podcast intro begins]

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure.

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kanner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner.

Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories. I come to the table with a ton of customer service and compliance experience, from a sports complex startup to new university centers to many years in grants and contracts administration, not to mention social science research, including focus group and survey work.

Michelle Bond
And I've combined a passion for hospitality, communications, and PR with community development and diversity training, all with the aim of engaging others to actively show up in the spaces we all occupy. Together, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between "Atta girl!" and "I told you so."

[podcast intro ends]

Joan Kanner (02:24.248)
Today on proofing stage, Michelle and I double team Veronica Yanhs, founder of Business Laid Bare and creator of The Orgasmic Operations Method. Together, we work out the operational kinks in your business while working in some personal ones. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah, as you indicated, we haven't caught up in a while. So we're so glad that we were able to snag a little bit of your time to come talk with us about business and growth and operations and... I mean, the biggest thing for me relating to you is how you have managed to take this brand that, you know, it's a personal brand and interest, apply it to something that is very necessary. Stay true to who you are, but also, I don't know, invite people into that in a way that is very appropriate for the topic of operations because it can be super painful. And so...

I'm always curious. I think we talked a little bit about this when we first started meeting with you, but about your business concept and the process of thinking about how you wanted to apply this idea of improving your business back end with your interests and your experience and how it all kind of came together. 

Veronica Yanhs
Yeah, like absolutely, Michelle.

Combining sex and kink and operations seems to be like the most oil and water thing one can do because they're both at such crazy far ends of the spectrum. But I've often been told that it was such a, it seems so easy the way that I like marinated the two together and integrated the two concepts together. And to be honest, if I'm gonna pour, literal blood, sweat and tears into a business. I can't hate it. Otherwise I would never show up. Like I have to love everything, everything about it. And so it was just the most natural thing from like, yeah, as someone who loves puns and double entendres, I'm like, "yeah, I whip business back ends into shape." Where I talk about, I love butt stuff. Like that's a really great starting intro for me because people listen, but also it's who I am. Just because I am this person...

Veronica Yanhs (04:44.212)
... online because my business was started online. It's like, who you see me here today is who you'll see me after the recording's over in person if we're having dinner. And so it means that I was just being true to myself and it's very polarizing. And I love it because it means that there's no fence sitting. I mean, because who wants to sit on a fence? That seems so uncomfortable. 

Michelle Bond
Yes. very. In all the ways.

Veronica Yanhs
And people either love me and like come running at me like, "oh my gosh, you're my person. Where have you been?" Or they're just like, "No, thank you. We, you don't say 'orgasm' outside the bedroom." Like if you don't say it outside the bedroom, you probably aren't getting it in the bedroom. But anyways, I digress. [laughs]

Michelle Bond
[laughs] Right. No, absolutely. And I like that of "no fence sitting" because it's true. We spend a lot of time, I think maybe less so now, but we spend a lot of time in our formative years learning how to do that or at least not ruffle too many feathers or figure out where we're going to, you know, the path of least resistance. And you're doing that too, but just by saying pick a side. 

Veronica Yanhs
Yeah. And it's so interesting because like, as I think about proofing, proofing takes time. And I'm the type of person that, I'm just like a go, go, go. Or like if something feels right, and oftentimes if it feels right or I'm excited, like my nose starts to run. So it's always like a hint for me to like follow the drip. Apparently I also learned that the drip was like an STI or something at one point. So I'm just like, you know, for me, it's just like, if my body's reacting, if things are all signs point to yes, like I will run. Like sometimes...

Veronica Yanhs (06:41.454)
Proofing for me is like milliseconds it feels like. Like if I just feel that gut intuition hit because I've always been told that, especially as a woman, it's like I'm too emotional. I need to be more logical. And it's like when I just like lean into being who I am, magical things happen. And if they don't happen right away, I never regret it because it means that I was true to myself. And so much in my life, I've had to wear different masks to appease different people. 

And so, this business is really just like, not necessarily my coming out store, but just like, "hey, this is who I am. Take it or leave it." Because I've often had - and this is funny - more male business colleagues, like I've had people call me up and say, "Hey, Veronica, when you have a chance, can you call me back?" And I was like, "this is weird." So I called them back and they're like, so they start off with, "Hey, so your business would make a lot more money if you tone down the kink."

Joan Kanner
Oof.

Veronica Yanhs
When businesses are looking for operations and they see how you're just like out and about like this and they might not feel comfortable. They'll probably then go to the big four of like management consulting, like Bain or the Boston group. And I'm just like, but then if they are for those big fours, they're not for me. Like there's plenty of business owners and founders and nonprofit leaders that I would rather hang out with that are more my jam, that don't believe that big stuffy organizations like the Big Four would be helpful for them. So I'm just like, you know what? "Thank you for your suggestion, even though I didn't ask for it. have a great day and I will just continue to fly my freak flag even higher, even bigger."

[musical interlude]

Michelle Bond (08:50.594)
I mean, there's so many assumptions in that too, right? That speaks to one definition of success that you must be by venturing to do the nearly impossible of starting your own business. That must be your goal. 

Veronica Yanhs
Yeah.

Michelle Bond
That goal that looks a certain way for a certain type of person is what you must want. And what you're doing is gonna prevent you from getting there when nobody asked you.

Veronica Yanhs
The biggest part that I've learned in the last few years of running this business. So there's been so many ups and downs. If I was to say, "everything was just peachy and perfect in my business all the time." Like I'd be lying through my teeth. There have been bad years and there have been good years. And what I've noticed is that so long as I like do what feels right and treat my team members well and make sure that our clients are having a really kick ass and fun time working on their operations. It's like, I'm shifting the paradigm.

I was talking to my therapist the other day and I was like, "you know, why did I have to go? Why couldn't I just like start a business that like designed websites or something? Why did I have to shift an entire paradigm of how business should be run and change how a fundamental and crucial part of business, your operations is approached and executed on? Why can't I just have done something simple?" And she's like, "because this is who you are when you are free to be and free to do whatever it is that you need without feeling the constraints of being tied down to some sort of cultural norm or expectations." She's like, "this is what it's manifested into." I'm like, and she said, "you should probably write a book." And I'm like, okay, my therapist giving me some business advice. But it's true. 

Like, when we're free to be exactly who we're meant to I mean, I think we change the world in our own ways.

Michelle Bond (10:47.906)
Yeah, we've done a lot of talking through this pod with other guests and, you know, just between us about, you know, how just the act of doing the thing is an act of defiance. Because by being a person who looks different, who has a different history, who has a different approach, who sees the world differently, whose definition of success is different, you're being revolutionary, you know?

Like you are just by being there and doing the thing, you're already changing something. And so then you take it those steps further of saying, and I'm not gonna... You you let this other stuff kind of slough off, right? Like I'm not gonna play by these rules or I'm gonna stay true to this, or I'm gonna, you know, we, the end of last season, it was just like, this whole process has been an act of trying to find our people, right? And the only way you do that is if you put out who you really are. I've said that over and over again, but it's so true because if you don't, you're only going to attract something that's not what you need.

Veronica Yanhs
I mean, it's a scary world, right? Oftentimes our business mentors have told us - especially me - like, if I show up this way, I'm, I'm repelling like 50% of or more of possible customers and clients. And I'm like, well, isn't that coming from a really scarcity mindset? 

Isn't that coming from a place of, "oh if I make a sale or work, have a client with everybody that has a beating heart, then I can't be successful." And so really, I think the beauty of being able to run our own businesses is defining success and joy and happiness and pleasure in our own way. Because like, that's why I think orgasmic operations for me has been so important is because operations has holistically been this really rigid...

Veronica Yanhs (12:53.558)
... and cold approach, like something so integral to a business. Like there is a reason why the COO position is number two on the totem pole, because it's like the what, which is the CEO, the person that has the vision is then coupled with the how, how do we make that vision come to life? And so when you are so in love with your vision, you also need to be just as in love with your operations because that's how you're going to achieve those goals and visions and impact metrics a lot faster and even more efficiently and more profitably. But that's not been the case. 

And I think as a result of like the lack of education around operations and doing it in a way that's so, I mean, I'm sure it works for like large organizations, but I believe that small businesses are the future. And when you, and when
solve a problem or approach a problem that's more meaningful to the people involved, I think there's so much more buy-in. And so that's what I've been literally on a mission on, not only for myself, but to help other people and to inspire the people to fall in love with their operations so that they can get out of being the bottleneck and do the shit that they wanted to start their business with to change the world to begin with in a much faster way.

So inspiration and falling in love is something that gets me really hot and bothered when I'm like teaching workshops and even just working with clients. And that was never something of an impact metric that I thought I could have because I always thought metrics were all about numbers and other quantitative data. But I'm just like, "look, actually, you can see the look on someone's face who went from, 'I used to hate operations and you were able to change my mindset in a span of 40 minutes. And now I can't wait to go figure out how I can do this better so that I can have better quality of life for myself, for my team members, and it ripples out to our clients and customers.' So I'm just like, that's how we win." 

Joan Kanner
And I've noticed, especially with the business, that my freedom and my success is awfully scary for others because of that scarcity mindset. And I know that when I make others uncomfortable by where I push things and when I call people out on stuff, for me, that's when I know I'm on the right track.

Joan Kanner (15:17.23)
You're on the right track, Veronica, but you already knew that.

Veronica Yanhs (15:22.338)
Someone said that just by being who I am and what I'm about - kinky, a woman of color, a business owner, someone that talks about pleasurable operations, like that's radical. And I'm like, "wait, what?" I guess I didn't, I don't even think about that because I'm just like, this is because this is who I am. just by being, even taking off the operations part, being an outward, like an open, I'm grateful that I don't have to hide my kink identity because it can be scary for people depending on what the situation is and where they live. 

Joan Kanner
Yeah, yes.

Veronica Yanhs
Just like, I am very privileged in that sense that I live in a liberal state and I run my own business and that I can be exactly who I am. And apparently this is really, really radical and different. So I can appreciate that sometimes I'm a bit too much for people, even though I think, "oh, this is just another Tuesday." 

Michelle Bond
Right.

Joan Kanner
But I don't know if this person that said like, like half the people you're gonna turn off. I don't know, anything they've possibly done, in entrepreneurship. I've known that my product, whether it be an app or bagels or whatever, are not for everybody. That saves you fucking time. That's a fucking blessing to have like cut out half the people that you shouldn't be marketing to, it's a waste. 

Veronica Yanhs
I'm curious...

Michelle Bond
Yeah.

Veronica Yanhs
... what are the big priorities for the both of you in terms of your business? And also. And I'm asking this because I'm very curious and I'll give you my answer so you can kind of know where I'm coming from. 

Joan Kanner
Ooo. Oh.

Veronica Yanhs
Last year, my life, my personal life changed in a lot of different ways. And I realized that I lacked a lot of spaciousness in my life. \

Joan Kanner
Mmmm...

Veronica Yanhs
Even though the business is very well-oiled, has a lot of good processes. I didn't have the right, the amount of spaciousness I wanted. To move around as much as I wanted the flexible freedom I needed to make sure that I could take care of family when need be. So since then, and after a lot of crying in the shower... 

Michelle Bond
[laughs] Yeah.

Veronica Yanhs
... and figuring out like existential crisis stuff, I'm like, okay, the word is spaciousness, but also more peace, more pleasure and more profitability. Like those have been the four words that I've been operating on. This is how I've been like revamping my business for like the last year. So I'm curious since what...

Veronica Yanhs (17:43.34)
What about you both? Like, what is important for you both?

Joan Kanner (17:49.336)
For me, it's been really important to not run myself into the ground so that I can actually take all of my learnings and then apply them things like the pod. I think at some point... and the 40s are a wonderful time for reflection, by the way, and also for past trauma to come up. It'll all be another conversation for another time. But at some point I realized I was better off being a force multiplier. And I, because I began thinking about legacy.

Not in terms of like children. don't have any kids to anyone's knowledge, but I wanted to... 

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Veronica Yanhs
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
It'll all come out in the book. I was just so high for part of the early aughts, you know what I'm saying? But for me, it wasn't like a one day you wake up, I wasn't like in the shower when this thing came up for me. But I realized that all the knocks I had taken, especially with Bottoms Up Bagels, I haven't... being in the position as a woman recording this as I'm going through it. I could say, "well, fuck it. I'm going to help another person because I didn't get helped." Or I can say, no, I'm going to stick it to all these fuckers who try to oppress you. Or as I say in a prior episode, fucko, who just symbolizes like male oppressors and like the women who support them. And I'm going to take those learnings and then make it harder for those people to operate in the world by educating women and non-binary folks.

So, that in essence is what I am proofing on, even though you're not asking a proofing question. Only Michelle gets to ask those. 

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
But off the record, off the record, I can answer it. See, that's like her Dungeon Mistress thing. I'm just here, little hashtag Greedy Bottom Joan over here. Just getting and getting and getting all the good stuff, keepin' quiet. 

Michelle Bond
But I mean, like we have made the decision to wind down, BUB for many reasons, not the least of which I think that idea of spaciousness is well put. It's like, you know, we, we did what we wanted to do with this to a point. And then we realized, you know, like many, we were on a hamster wheel of...

Michelle Bond (20:02.446)
... just literally slaving away and people were very happy to have us do that - forever. And, you know, we really had to ask ourselves, is that what, "is that what we want?" Is that, you know, I think if we, if our goals were to be a shopkeep and in a mom and pop in one location, that would have been fine. We loved our customers. We had a great product. We miss doing it terribly. But we had bigger aspirations. And I think we wanted to, as you well know, from helping us get a playbook down for the Roadshow, we wanted to give ourselves the best chance to fully realize what was our vision. And so we knew we couldn't do that by wearing all of the hats. And so we did decide to not continue this cycle of craziness and insanity and try to give ourselves the best chance of saying, "what are our skills? How can we apply them to growing this business? How can we seek and find the right partners and the right supports to make this really what it can be?" And we dedicated ourselves to that full-time for a good chunk of time, but none of us are independently wealthy. [laughs] And so we decided that, wow, we're working so hard on trying to breathe life into this in this way. And the environments around us have changed and maybe it's just not the best business move going forward. Maybe if we take all of our past experience and all of our food world experience and all of our social justice desires and try to position ourselves in a way to support people on a larger scale... And so this conversation is a bridge to doing that. And I hear you about proofing. I mean, one of the reasons that we, it's almost like giving ourselves permission to linger on that question and in this space, because oftentimes you hear about the trials and tribulations after somebody's already gotten the Grammy or the Oscar or whatever. You don't, you don't, no one's doing a documentary about the middle of it all, right? And...

Michelle Bond (22:25.324)
... that's where we're at right now. So we're transitioning. I, we're trying to figure out what individually and as a business, you know, what the next ventures and opportunities are. So it's overly pragmatic right now, which I don't think is the worst thing, but it's tough for a business that was born out of pure passion and solely connected to our identities, as you were saying. So it's like, you know, there was a fair amount of time over the last year when it's just like, like, who am I? What am I doing? Who am I now? And, and also will people still, will, can people take me as a person for which BUB is only one part of my story?

Veronica Yanhs
Okay, there were so many good nuggets here. And I think the biggest thing is that it speaks to this phrase that I really love that sometimes our clients, based on like the corporate experience that they've had, just like hate to talk about, but I'm like, it's continuous improvement. It's evolution. It's growth. And you both have exactly talked about like, oh, if something doesn't feel good or feel right, it means that it's time to change.

And so when we take both the qualitative and the quantitative data involved, it really helps us make a really good decision. Like I'm the type of person that apparently with my human design needs to make decisions from like a neutral energy perspective. If I'm super, super like, if I'm feeling super, super good that day and someone asks me like, "Hey, can you help me move?" And I'll be like, "Yeah, of course." And then come like moving day, I'm like, "Why did I say yes?"

I feel like this moment of introspection and proofing for you both is beautiful. We don't, at least I don't feel like I've been raised to have some like reflection and introspection time because first of all, it's like the American experience to go, go, go, go, go. But then being first generation born here from immigrants who escaped the Vietnam war to come here.

Veronica Yanhs (24:39.98)
They had a lot of expectations. Like sitting still for me has never been easy because it means that I didn't feel productive or I wasn't hustling or doing the things or, you know, being the narrative that my parents and family had instilled in me. So it's like, just by sitting still and thinking and figuring out what's working and what's not, I think is beautiful. 

Like I think in this phase of my life, I'm being a lot more intentional because as we talk about proofing, like I literally, can think of an idea when it feels really good and I have that hit in my gut. I can like run towards it, do the thing and come back within like a few days or something. Well, my partner, because we talk about this all the time, Curtis will sit there and he's like, "I'll still be kind of thinking about it." And it's not right or wrong. Like we just have to honor ourselves. So I was just, the reason why I asked that question is because I'm curious. 

And the, and to understand like what's important to my friends and where they are in their cycle of life or business is something that matters to me because I think we don't talk about that stuff enough. We're just talking about like, oh how much money did we all make month over month? And that stuff gets boring. Even though it's what keeps the lights on, it's like, well, yeah, sure, we can do that, but that's almost like the baseline. What can we do more with this venture or endeavor that we're going on and you both clearly want something bigger and better and I'm excited to go along for the ride.

[musical interlude

Veronica Yanhs (26:28.078)
I've worked with business mentors and coaches throughout my career. And they'll often tell me that it's something, when something's not right, it's a mindset issue. And I'm like, I don't think you fully understand... 

Joan Kanner
Is that toxic positivity? Should I try to do downward dog and like have some chaga tea and then I'm good?

Veronica Yanhs
[laughs]

Veronica Yanhs
Sure. It most likely could be my mindset. [I] Don't, don't disagree. But I think just to say that it's like there are reasons why my mindset is the way it is, right? There is trauma, hardship, history, heritage even, generational... maybe trauma is the right word, generational expectations. It's like whatever it is, like that all lends itself to why mindset is bad. So that's why it's like to just generalize something so complex into something that one or a group of people find tangible, I think it's like super irresponsible. 

Which is why the way that we do operations is very human centric. Like orgasmic operations is rooted on being people first and pleasure-filled because there's so many automations and tech and AI in this world. And who's behind all of that? People. 

Joan Kanner
Mmm, hmm.

Veronica Yanhs
And so when you treat people as people and you amplify their strengths and their uniqueness and what makes them tick in all the best ways, it's like - Everybody wins. They show up better. There's better work culture. I often say that operations is the internal branding of a business. How good, how efficient, how streamlined your operations are really showcases how you take care of people, how you run a business, how profitable you are, how you treat your clients and customers and even people that haven't purchased from you yet.

Joan Kanner
No, I agree. think like people, it's almost like when people look at DEI as being like so customer-focused and it's really also for your staff members. think the same thing comes into play when comes to ops.

[fauxmerical for "Hvort End Est Oop" begins]

Joan Kanner (28:35.32)
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[singing]
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[instrumental musical intro]

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[instrumental musical outro]

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Michelle Bond (29:34.306)
To talk a little bit more technically about the work that you do and what you offer. I mean, I think that's the thing, right? It shouldn't be, there are a lot of things that do need to be customized by industry or by topic or by product. But you're really offering systems and processes and a way of thinking that we've used throughout this whole process. I mean, if we had it when we were like literally in the shop, a whole other story, but it doesn't, there's nothing in there that's going to waste.

I mean, it's a matter of like maybe changing the knowledge base into different types of knowledge depending on the application, right? But I mean, I think that's, that's the when you're talking about like level two on the totem pole with the COO. I mean, that's why it's so important. And that's also why so many people dread it is because it's integral, but it's so difficult, especially when you're already flying the plane or riding the bike or whatever your metaphor is. And so that's where working with someone like you who can come in, you probably don't always have the luxury of doing it from the beginning. Joan and I were talking about this. You're, not usually probably working with businesses who haven't started yet. You have to like get in there when they've already got stuff going on and not freak them out, but also make sense of it and, and give them a, a vehicle to use going forward.

Veronica Yanhs
I think that for us, we work best when a business has already gotten going, whatever that looks like. Like if you're still in this idea phase of, I'm thinking about starting this business, there's nothing for us to necessarily work our magic on. The biggest offer, the biggest thing that I can offer is that, "hey, right now your brain is going in possibly a million different directions at once." And I know this because on a whim, and we haven't exactly launched this yet, but my friend and I over lunch one day was like, we should start with a Kinky Greetings, like drop ship web business. So I bought kinky greetings dot com. 

Joan Kanner
That's why I couldn't buy it, damn it. You beat me to it! 

Michelle Bond
I was going to say, you and Joan are like the same in that regard. Got a good idea? Get that domain! You never know.

Joan Kanner
That's totally what I do. I know... it's so archaic.

Veronica Yanhs (31:49.698)
And so the reason why I say this is because as we were just brainstorming and dreaming, it's like, we already have to think about ops because like all the slogans that we came up with over sushi, it's like that has to be organized somewhere. Or hey, how would we do this? So like, it's almost like you're already thinking about... like operations is just inherent because it's about "the how" in a business. So you have like revenue and then you have revenue operations. Like here's how we want to make money.

Operations is about like, or here's what we want to make money on and operations is like, okay, how do we do this? Or when we talk about marketing, it's like here are the tactics that I want to use. I want to be on LinkedIn or do paid ads, but then like marketing operations means that we're thinking about the how the process from A to Z to get that end result happening reliably every time or to be organized. And so I feel like operations is so hard for some people because it's so inherent in everything that you do, because it's really easy to say like, "oh, this is sales, this is marketing, this is human resources, and this section is PR." But it's almost like operations is inside each and every department and section and should be so that businesses, whatever ventures that we do, whether it be multi-million dollars or side hustles that you are loving, but you still want to do a full-time job. It's like, the more you work on your operations, the more it turns from... And I don't have human children either, but I can only imagine it changes your business from being your baby, something that you have to constantly like worry about and meddle in and touch and to make sure they're feeding themselves to this like fully fledged self-sustaining adult that can walk, run, run the business without you eat and take care of itself. And so that's the difference between having operations in the business is, it your baby? Because oftentimes when people are like, "my business is my baby." I'm like, "you don't want that." Yeah. You want it to be this responsible adult over here that can take care of themselves. And you can go on vacation and know that your business is not going to implode and that your team members are still doing what they need to...

Veronica Yanhs (34:09.538)
... without you having to check in on your time off. So that's a big difference. 

Joan Kanner
It's like when we were working together, you were helping us also think about how would the way we bring in catering customers and that kind of fulfillment. Like how we automate what things have to be done. We had to look at some processes already in place, maybe recording the wrong things. And if you keep on recording the wrong thing, it's not going to produce any better outcome for you. But then how, interstitially, that order would have to talk to production [the production team] and the people who actually fulfill it. I think that's also a special thing. So in this conversation, I'm realizing that we're talking about these really cool macro-level things and we're kind of get it. We're all nodding our heads and we're like high-fiving. But I feel like it just be good for people to understand either what a ClickUp [software tool], what gets recorded in ClickUp for their tech stack or just basically just an example, like using our food business, right? Like just what operations, like what kind of SOPs we're talking about, what we're talking about when we talk about operations.

Veronica Yanhs
Yeah, so operations is when if you strip down everything about it into one concept. And I said this earlier, but bear it saying it again, it's the how. So that's one of the things that I would love you, dear listener, to take away from is that operations at the end of the day is just the how. How your business takes action, how your team members take action, how your clients and customers take action. For instance, even if we're running like a food business, how do you want them to put away, like discard their trash? Or how do want them to pay for their food? Everything is about taking action and that's operations because when you're intentional about it, you're creating and curating experiences that are consistent and on brand and to everyone's standards and expectations. So having good operations is about just having great customer, about having good customer service as well. And so operations is very macro in that sense. And then we can just to step distill it down to simpler things. Like, especially in the world of 2024, we're all virtual in one way or another, even if you may be a brick and mortar. Like we work with tons of brick and mortars, but they have software and apps and other things that they need to work on. And so in terms of like a tech stack, it's like, I think the simplest tech stack that you can have is a good way to store...

Veronica Yanhs (36:34.912)
... knowledge and information because institutional knowledge is a big business killer. Meaning if you keep everything in your head, you're just going to be that like single proof of failure or single point of failure or the lynch pin. The thing that's basically shackling you to the business is because everyone relies on you or core team members to succeed in the business. So having a good way to store knowledge, like SOPs, how something is done, checklists, get things out of your head. Like Joan and Michelle alluded to, project management, they use ClickUp. I use ClickUp as well because it's the best way that works with my brain and theirs. So having a way to keep track of the tasks and things that you have to do in your business. 

And then I would say having a good website hosting capability is important. 

Joan Kanner
Hmmm...

Michelle Bond
Hmmm...

Veronica Yanhs
Okay, so I'm not techie at all. That's why I probably am biased when I say this. So I use SiteGround. And the reason why I love them is because if, because this happened once, I was about to launch my yearly event. It's called Opstober. Some, one of the plugins I had for my website was broken or something, which caused my entire website when you go to businesslaidbare dot com, it just had this white code, white background. Like, you know, [I'm] freaking out. I can't get into my WordPress login. I can't do anything. I go to SiteGram and I'm, I'm freaking out. I'm like "this is an emergency. This is what's happening." They're like, "well, we just went into the backend and turned off that plugin for you, so all should be fine." I'm like, "What?" 

So having a website host that can take care of you like especially for someone like me who is non-techie is so important. And then another piece of important tech stack would be like having a good like calendar/scheduler app. I hate it when people are like, "what day and time works for you? Does Wednesday work?" And I'm like, "oh my goodness, here's my calendar." I even have friends like when I'm meeting them in person, even, still have them schedule on my calendar because then...

Veronica Yanhs (38:57.868)
... it means that I can prioritize them and it goes on my calendar and I won't forget them. So having a good calendar app is great. Also having a good email marketing platform app is crucial. I use ActiveCampaign. People can start off with things like Mailchimp. I often note that that's like the app that people all jump on because it's free, but then it's like the app that they leave...

Michelle Bond
[laughs] That's so true.

Veronica Yanhs
... because it's been clunky. So, having a good email marketing platform is really great because that's where you can be in control of your data and your audience. Because if you're just marketing on social media, you don't own that. Facebook could shut down tomorrow. If your marketing channels are so interconnected with Instagram and Instagram Reels or TikTok and whatnot, and then those platforms go away, you can't market to those people. So having a good email list is really important. And they don't filter and censor what you say because you own it and you're sending emails.

Michelle Bond (40:05.536)
Yeah, I mean... 

Veronica Yanhs
I think one thing going on, but I feel like that's pretty great. 

Joan Kanner
That's great for a start. 

Veronica Yanhs
It's a great. 

Joan Kanner
I just have to say, Michelle, I don't want to cut you off. 

Michelle Bond
No, go ahead. 

Veronica Yanhs
Yes. 

Joan Kanner
I just have to say a couple things. One, I think listeners can relate to actually being a staff person. If they can't, God bless if you went from like, you know, from the crib right to like owning shit [i.e. a business]. Amazing for you. But... 

Michelle Bond
The crib? [laughs] The crib... 

Veronica Yanhs
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
Not the crib [pronounces creeb] but the crib.

Michelle bond
Not the cradle, but the crib. 

Joan Kanner
The, the crib, a bassinet, I don't know, a manger. When it comes to the... I have left places because of the inconsistent application of rules. I mean, some stuff is also just having bosses that were narcissists, but like at its core, what I couldn't deal with the grind day to day, was the inconsistent application of rules. Who your manager is really shouldn't dictate how basic processes happen again and again. So just your earlier points about why ops are important, Veronica.

I love how different themes are coming back up for us, including Mailchimp. We had a guest on, Sarah O 'Leary from Mend Acupuncture. And I think it could be the name of a memoir of hers. I think that the proper title was... 

Michelle Bond
"Crying Over a Mailchimp at 10pm."

Veronica Yanhs
Oof. Oooof.

Michelle Bond
But she used that as an example to illustrate exactly what you were saying. And I was going to ask this when it comes to like trends that you see with businesses that you work with, because I think there's like the businesses that from jump know, "okay, this I'm the practitioner or I'm the technical expert. This is what I'm good at. This is what I want to do. And I need an operations person. I need a fundraiser I need..." And they build their team, even if it's not paid from jump or whatever.

And then there are those of us who are like, "here's the thing that's driving me and oh, I got to figure out how to do this, and oh, I got to figure out how to do that and I got to..." you know, and then it just, and she was explaining her first couple of years of her business and talking about like, "yeah, so I'm, I'm the garbage collector and I'm the payroll processor and I'm the acupuncturist and then I'm crying over Mailchimp at 10 PM at night," you know? So that was the context, but it was so real. And I think...

Michelle Bond (42:21.108)
... that operations when you think about it from jump, even in the most basic of ways, does help you bring somebody else on to take that over or figure out what automations, as you indicated, would be helpful or just prioritize. But a lot of times, if you get too far into it where it is all living in your head and you haven't taken the time to really put any of those things in place. It's so hard for even the most talented, well-intentioned people to be able to jump into that hopscotch already in motion. 

Joan Kanner
I feel like you're giving me more to do, which I think is also a fallacy. 

Veronica Yanhs
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
It's like, you're giving me more to do. I'm paying you [the operations consultant] to do this. It's just like, well, I have to understand how you do things. And as someone who went through a really rigorous graduate program, we have to really be super transparent.

I mean, I was trained to be a therapist. I want to have people take two seconds, maybe three to imagine me being your therapist, by the way. 

Veronica Yanhs
That would be great. My therapist is so opinionated and you would be too. 

Joan Kanner
Woo, ooo! Thank you for saying that. But in like in my early 20s, when I was like so high and going to clubs, as I previously mentioned, I maybe wouldn't have been the best person [to be a therapist]. But no, serious, I didn't know myself, right? But anyway, I just want to like offer that having a program that made me look at myself made me more open to getting feedback throughout my graduate program, just different jobs I've had. And I feel like that was one of the reasons that I was called to working with you, Veronica, is I was really open to exposing the mess. Because if you want to make something better, you have to really be like, this is how we did it previously. not someone like you have to trust you're not going to shame me for it. There's no slut shaming...

Michelle Bond
Yeah.

Joan Kanner
... of just like, you didn't have a process for that. Like you're not going to say that because you want to continue that relationship. So I felt very comfortable and can... constantly like having that cycle of consent with you that that helped plod me along for improvement. 

Veronica Yanhs
And the work that we do is, is very vulnerable, if that's the right word, like... 

Joan Kanner
Oh, hell yeah. 

Veronica Yanhs
Like you're afraid to kind of show me what's under the hood, not you...

Veronica Yanhs (44:28.642)
... like collectively, and people are like, "my background, my backend is such a mess. Like all our documentation or our doc... it's everywhere." And I'm just like, "but that's okay. The fact that you're actually here chatting with me, like, I know that it could be such a vulnerable moment because you're literally telling me all the bad things that are happening in your business and the disorganization that you're kind of just trying to like, you know, hide under the rug. It's like, we're gonna fix that. We're gonna take off all like the years of temporary band-aids to finally expose what's there so that we can heal the wound, clean it up, and actually just create this business that allows you to do what you started, like that you started this business for." 

Like oftentimes people, most times people don't start their business to run a business. They started a business because they wanted to do more of what they loved or saw an opportunity or saw a problem that they could solve to make people's lives better or animals lives better. And without operations, they become stuck in that weed cycle where they can't do what they love. They can't be the subject matter expert. So here we are coming in to figure out where all the kinks are so that we can help them build this operational engine to be smooth, reliable, automated where intentionally needed so that they could do what they love more and achieve the, again, income and income goals a lot faster and more profitably.

[musical interlude]

Veronica Yanhs (46:15.79)
So there was this study in 2018 done by the Project Management Institute and they did this on like Fortune 500 companies. And they said they found that the report they found was that about 20% of a business's annual revenue is lost due to inefficient operations and project management. 

Michelle Bond
Mmmm, yeah.

Veronica Yanhs
Every single business that we've ever worked with has always said that revenue was their number one goal to increase it. And if not revenue, profit.

Michelle Bond
Mmm.

Veronica Yanhs
And so to imagine you're working so hard just to automatically lose 20%. And the kicker is, is that again, these are Fortune 500-type companies. So then when you switch the lens and look at tiny companies that we work with that number, and we've seen the numbers, we've seen their QuickBooks, we've seen how they operate, that number is actually closer to 50%... 

Joan Kanner
Mmmm, hmmm.

Michelle Bond
Oof.

Veronica Yanhs
... because fewer people, more hats, less grace, less wiggle room equals higher chance of failure. So imagine working so hard every day just to know that 50% of your business, 50% of your revenue is out the door because you have lacked good operations. 

Michelle Bond
And does that mainly show up when you're saying that? I mean, I think about it in terms of organization and like, you know, supplies and sales and things like that. But the number one place my head goes to is retention, is employee retention and turnover in terms of where those losses, how those losses show up in terms of lost revenue. Is that something that you would agree with? 

Veronica Yanhs
Absolutely, for sure. They are such crucial members of your business and you have spent so much time looking for them, talking to them, hiring them, teaching them and to just have them leave means that you spent all this time almost for nothing, if that makes sense. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Veronica Yanhs
Like time is money. No matter if you're running a product-based business, a service-based business, it's like time is money because it's the biggest thing that we have as a finite resource. 

Michelle Bond
Right.

Veronica Yanhs
And so to train somebody, because oftentimes an onboarding, so our onboarding experience is about a month.

Veronica Yanhs (48:34.166)
Not to say it takes a month for them to get to work, but from end to end, from, "hey, today's your day one," to spending the week by yourself learning about the business in a really curated way, to here's your first two-week sprint project that's in your wheelhouse to see how you work. And we give you a sprint project so that you're forced to interact with current team members so there's no awkwardness or to, "hey, consult the knowledge base. Because you're going to need to know how to look for information to do your, the sprint project." 

It's like by like the last day, by day 30, we have put pretty much effort into making them feel welcome, teaching them, even though a lot of it is supported through content they can look at themselves because we have a lot of documentation, but it's like we put energy and time into that. Time spent doing something with them means that I wasn't doing something else.

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Veronica Yanhs
And so if they end up leaving because we had no operations and everything was chaos and like we worked, like we almost got hired by a company and I said "no" to, and this was last year when money wasn't as great because of the talk of the recession and all that stuff. So 2020 was, was hard. $15 million company, a hundred team members, full-time employees. And when I asked them what processes were like, they all pretty much echoed that "chaos was their process." 

Nobody knew who their boss or manager was. They were a design build company. So even though they bill for time, nobody really knew how to track time or did it consistently. So that's why I love working with small businesses like this, like small and mighty teams is because the sooner we can put in processes today means that they can skip that dysfunctional chaotic growing pains of tomorrow.

Michelle Bond
Yeah, that's so true.

Veronica Yanhs
Not be this $15 million business whose CFO just quit. And they are, while they're making more and more revenue, their profit is like decreasing a lot year over year. So that's why I'm like good operations - that statistic - really does matter. So, and then when you ask about team member retention, yeah, absolutely. Or if you look at it on the flip side, like what if it took you like 10 plus...

Veronica Yanhs (50:55.982)
30 plus days to just even onboard new clients because everything was manual or you didn't know how to onboard them correctly. Like take with the copywriting agency, for instance, I'm just making this up. If it takes you 30 days or 10 days to onboard a client, that's also money lost because you're not being efficient. Like you should be able to onboard them right away. Like I hope our onboarding experience for you all was rather efficient. I know this was quite some time ago, but like we talk about that. It's like, why drag out an onboarding experience and spend more time on something when it could have been done like within two days, but it took you 10 to 30 days to do it. That's money lost because again, you're not focusing on the things that you need to be doing or maybe even being effective with your project deliverable. So it shows up everywhere.

Joan Kanner
Yeah, I mean, the fact for a lot of places, I mean, just having it be a new day every day is problematic in terms of the psyche. I don't care what the fuck your salary is. And to like the canoe metaphor, it's like when you have bad ops, it's like having some rando in the back of the canoe, not just like not paddling or just or being lazy about kicking back a soda or a beer - it's a person actually drilling a hole in the bottom of it. 

And at first, even working with you, it was really important for people to understand that like - do we, do we see like some revenue come in, especially like with the Roadshow and be able to like take any onboard any person any, you know, chef that we met on the road and hire them and have them work in some sort of BUB-fashion right away.? That was great. But it was just first like stopping. There's some sort of internal bleeding that happens. And just seeing like what's missing and that was like the first thing for you make money is just your stop, you stop losing it. 

And then you're able to like see that and so there's enough in working with you I've noticed where there's enough of a feedback loop, or it wasn't just seemed like we just kept working with you and the team and like, "okay, when are we gonna get to something?" The results were actually quite quick. And to me, that was very affirming. And that was enough of an impetus to continue going on [working with Business Laid Bare]. So I hope that people listen and don't think this is like a forever process because to your point, Veronica, even just with onboarding, you're very efficient in how you do things and we can all work together to assess what's wrong quickly to be able to address it. So it's a really positive feedback loop. 

Veronica Yanhs
It's so interesting because...

Veronica Yanhs (53:06.546)
... I am the type of person that values relationships. And so when our business mentors were like, "my gosh, you're working yourself out of a job." I'm like, "hell yes, I am because I am teaching you how to fish." Like I don't want to be some like crappy gym membership whose contract forces you to like stay with me. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Veronica Yanhs
Like I'd rather be open and be like "here, this is what it looks like." And my goal is to work myself out of a job. But the fact that if you want us to stay along and be with you on this ride, it means that you're doing it not because I forced you to or withheld something, but of your own free will and enthusiasm. 

Joan Kanner
Right. My god...

Veronica Yanhs
You want us to just stay as like advisors or something as you keep growing. Because not only do we grow your business as as Business Laid Bare does, we grow with your business because once you solve operational needs in one area, more things are going to come up or things change. And so we're here to be that thought partner.

[musical interlude]

Michelle Bond (54:08.79)
Okay, last question. [laughs] So Veronica, as you know, we like to ask guests something that they're proofing on at the end of every episode. And this could be any place you want to take it. New offerings, personal growth, professional growth. What have you been thinking about? 

Veronica Yanhs
Okay, so I've been thinking about how to make the best chicken coop that I can. I don't, I don't. 

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Veronica Yanhs
I'm not the maker. I'm the ideas person... 

Michelle Bond
Okay...

Veronica Yanhs
But I go back into the needs and requirements. Like what do I need from this chicken coop to make it the best that it could be for not only me, but of course for our chickens. 

Michelle Bond
All right. So you're being serious? Chickens?

Joan Kanner
Yeah, of course. For sure. 

Michelle Bond
Okay. Cool. I don't... is news to me. 

Veronica Yanhs
We rescued a chicken because she was walking down the side of the road. That's a pretty busy road we live on. And so when we picked her up, we're like, "oh hey, this is the same brand. I mean, breed." [laughs]

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Veronica Yanhs
Same breed as our four current chickens. So now we have five chickens and we call her Miss Stranger and she's been giving us eggs. And I learned from our mobile coop that I want something that's low maintenance that I can leave, again, spaciousness, right? I can leave for a few weeks and know that the chickens will be just fine. 

Joan Kanner
Mmm...

Veronica Yanhs
So that's one thing I'm proofing on. And the second thing is, I alluded to it earlier, was that I'm writing a book. Do know I the title...

Michelle Bond
You are! 

Veronica Yanhs
Yes. Do I know the title? No. Do I know what it's going to be about? Not necessarily. I just know that like when I do workshops and stuff, like people have asked after it's been done, like, "Hey, do you have any books that you could recommend that where I can learn more about this stuff?" And of course the answer is "not really because there's nothing done about it." And I don't remember who said that, like, "if something's missing, go write the book." Was it like Toni Morrison or something? I can't remember, but that's something that I'm proofing on right now is what book can I write? 

Joan Kanner
Yes, this just in. Story breaks. 

Veronica Yanhs
[laughs]

Veronica Yanhs
I'm proofing on a book. It's so early idea stage. So we'll see where this takes me. 

Michelle Bond
All right. Well, we will follow very closely because I definitely want to pick that up and share it with everybody I know.

Joan Kanner (56:33.03)
I just want to see what the cover would look like. The jacket alone could be sold for good money. I hope it folds out almost like a centerfold, like when you open up the jacket for the hardcover. That alone would have its own audience. 

Veronica Yanhs
I almost think I want the title to be the thing I say all the time - "If it's not orgasmic, don't settle." If something doesn't feel good, feel right. But I don't know where the book is going to go, but I say that so much and people walk away with that because now they're with this lens of, "hey, this doesn't feel good. I think I should change it." Or I think something should... And I'm like, that is a big mindset shift that you can't pay money for when people actually actively want to change something, even if they don't know how to change it for the better. Because again, we're human beings. We love routine. We love predictability. And so when someone's like, "I think something has to change." That's like that spark that gets me so excited.

Okay, that's it. I'm done talking. [laughs]

Michelle Bond
No, I love it. I love it. love it. So last thing, tell all the folks how to find you. 

Veronica Yanhs
Yes. And I know that you'll have the show notes and all that good stuff, but Business Laid Bare dot com is where you'll find me and you can find paid and free resources. You can check out the Business Whip. I'll make sure to give you all the links after the show so that you have it in your show notes. 

Joan Kanner
Thank you for leaving your peach print on the pod.

Veronica Yanhs
[laughs]

Veronica Yanhs
Thank you so much for having me. You both are fantastic. I can't wait to keep supporting you in whatever endeavors you come up with. 

Joan Kanner
You're going to regret that...

Veronica Yanhs
No, I'm not.

Joan Kanner
... because I'm to be in your part of the world in August and to quote Destiny's Child, because why not? I'm going to make you want to throw your pager out the window. Tell MCI to cut the phone poles. You will break your lease - or your mortgage - so you can move because...

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
... I'm going to be going to the XOXO Fest, the last one indeed, in August. So I may have to get on your calendar. 

Veronica Yanhs
I consent enthusiastically and I will leave that I feel so honored y'all made a bagel sandwich after Business Laid Bare. So. "Funishment" [the bagel sandwich name]. I will, I always talk about that. So hope your ears are constantly burning. 

Michelle Bond
Awww... Love it. Love it. well, thank you so much. It's been truly pleasurable and we can't wait to follow...

Michelle Bond (58:57.346)
... your journey as well, so... 

Veronica Yanhs
Thank you.

[theme music begins]

Joan Kanner (59:14.414)
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme music, Bagels for the Kraken, was written and performed by Thorn Haze. Additional music from Pixabay. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes, disclaimers, and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage dot com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail dot com.

You can also find us on Instagram, threads and TikTok at Proofing Stage. Visit our Patreon page to support the show and get even more great content. I'm your host Joan Kanner. 

Michelle Bond
And I'm your host Michelle Bond. Thanks for listening.

[theme music ends]