BONUS: An Anecdote about the Antidote to Unsolicited Advice

Ever walk away from an exchange with someone “trying to help” whose brilliant suggestions leave you feeling frustrated or drained? Or, maybe you’ve been that well-intentioned person who has missed the mark? Worse yet, you may not know either way. 

In between seasons Joan and Michelle discuss recent experiences (good and bad!) and dissect the all-too-frequent tendency to leap before listening. And, we offer a simple hack to trick us all into doing better.

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Transcript

Joan Kanner (00:02)

Five, four, three, two, one. Here we are with another bonus episode of Proofing Stage with me, Joan Kanner.

Michelle Bond (00:11)

And me, Michelle Bond.

Joan Kanner (00:14)

Michelle, thank you for trusting me with the theme for this one. [laughs]

Michelle Bond (00:15)

[Laughs] Yeah, you felt inspired, so I learned not to stifle that.

Joan Kanner (00:22)

Ooh, girl. So I was at… I'm just jumping right in. 

Michelle Bond

Do it.

Joan Kanner

Do it I'm jumping right in to talk about an experience I had. I recently had a speaking engagement and my topic was consent. And ironically…

Michelle Bond

Ooph.

Joan Kanner

I know…

Michelle Bond

I mean…

Joan Kanner

I know…  Straight up. I believe I performed fairly well. I felt good about it. And ironically, afterwards I received feedback that is something I did not consent to - and it was some unsolicited advice.  So I got…

Michelle Bond (00:58)

After your consent talk.

Joan Kanner

After my talk of consent - from another woman, mind you - so this is great. 

Michelle Bond

Where is this going?

Joan Kanner

We're all learning so much. We're all so woke, it's time to take a nap. 

Michelle Bond

[laughs]

Joan Kanner

I mean, literally, this is where we are. And it was like a slow seduction in some ways…

Michelle Bond

Oh…

Joan Kanner (01:18)

… in that she started by saying, “Oh, what a great talk, blah, blah, blah.” And then she also knows me from our food business and she misses our stuff. And I said, “oh, well, thanks for your feedback about my talk. I felt good about it. And thanks for your feedback about BUB. And I, you know, I miss feeding you guys “and all that.

And then we went to the topic of her giving me guidance as to how we can overcome different obstacles to open anew and that there are local champions to help with that. 

Michelle Bond

[laughs]

Joan Kanner

That was problematic to me for a number of reasons.

Michelle Bond (01:55)

Oh, boy…

Joan Kanner (01:57)

Because she assumed that I, and we for that matter, had not done any of our homework, have not tried a myriad of things to keep things going.

Michelle Bond (02:09)

Yeah, like have not spent the last 14 months literally working every day on it. [laughs]

Joan Kanner (02:16)

That we would not know different local stakeholders, and by that, I mean gatekeepers, king makers, and systems. And she also came into it, I think, assuming that I was just a plain, like, idiot. I mean, besides like not knowing these things, but just really would not have thought about this without her guidance. And she made a gross assumption about her own skill sets. I mean, she wasn't saying “I am an investor,” or “I own property” or “I have an ’in’ with whoever could grease the skids” or something that will be helpful to you. It was simply… [it] came across to me as I didn't know any better and let's try this different thing. It's like: “It's raining out. Did you know an umbrella can keep you dry?” I mean, literally, that level.

Michelle Bond (03:01)

Right? Yeah, yeah. Not, unfortunately not uncommon.

Joan Kanner (03:10)

And for me, having that experience, I felt gross about it and frustrated. I tried to be like, really, I tried to push back in the moment in a way that I felt was appropriate, because I don't have a relationship with this person. You know, like, there's like not a friendship or anything. And then I thought, “dear god, I don't want to ever do that to other people.” And what came to the rescue, like later that week, was I was listening to an episode of Maintenance Phase. Believe it or not, I don't just produce podcasts. 

Michelle Bond (03:13)

Joan Kanner

I also listen to them.

Michelle Bond

[laughs] Podcast school.

Joan Kanner (03:39)

I'm in podcast school. And I have my degree in podcasts. I'm a PhD in pods. So, I was listening to Maintenance Phase and it was an episode within which Michael, one of the two leads, was talking about a friend of his and how their philosophy when it comes to meeting someone at a dinner party or other more public events like this. When you learn of someone struggling with something or having overcome something or just basically talking about their life's experience, before you decide to go from zero to advice giving - and do it in three seconds - instead, take a moment, listen to what they're saying, right? Don't think about what you're gonna say next while listening to them - and ask three questions. 

Michelle Bond (04:24)

Hmm.

Joan Kanner

They're not three set questions, but ask three questions about their experience because then you're opening yourself up to learning more about their experience. You're honoring what they've already done because believe it or not, they thought about this stuff a lot more than you have. 

Michelle Bond

Yeah.

Joan Kanner

And they've had to really struggle with the consequence of these things. So, honor that. And I think that by the time you ask those three questions, you're no longer in that knee -jerk mindset of “I've gotta go ahead and spew something else out to show like I'm competent or to show like it's easy, just do this.” You know, that woman probably walked away and thought either I was being belligerent…

Joan Kanner (05:00)

…or that like she just dropped some knowledge and it was just completely changed my life in two seconds.

Michelle Bond (05:05)

Yeah, it makes me, wow. That's actually a really good point about the three questions. Because to me, I almost see this physical opening up of space in terms of the conversation. And it makes me realize how often… You've heard this before in terms of active listening or things, but how often we're already thinking about what we want to say. And…

Michelle Bond (05:32)

… kind of checked out in terms of listening to somebody at all anyway. So, by having, you know, this like simple even cheat, right? Of just asking a few questions, it kind of forces you to stay on track. That makes me think of, I was at this party last summer with actually a friend of yours and… 

Joan Kanner (05:51)

Hmm.

Michelle Bond

But a bunch of, I didn't know anybody else there. And so, you know, it's like cocktail conversation, not fancy, but.

Michelle Bond (05:59)

And there was this guy there who I ended up talking to for almost the entire night, basically because it was just such a pleasant exchange. And I realized that one of the things that was most profound to me about speaking with him was just the way that he made me feel by asking questions and literally making space for my experience without. Kind of waiting for me to finish talking so that he could either give his spin on it or give more, you know, either unsolicited advice or expertise. And it wasn't in this like false modesty way or this false interest way. It was just in a way like he didn't need any of that. It was either because of like growing up really securely or maybe working on that within himself, but.

It was just so striking to me because it made me realize how frequently that's not the case. And this isn't even a gender thing. It's just in general, but especially like if you're white and male and privileged, you're not used to just like naturally making space for other people. And I realized the power of it by being on the receiving end. It made me like, it made me almost want to dissect the conversation the next day because I was like, why? You know, that was so pleasant and not in a way that it was like over-the-top amusing or entertaining or deep or anything. It was just very open. And that's what your example makes me think of is just like, how can you open up a conversation? How can you take away kind of this like competitive tendency of wanting to like drop some knowledge? That's great.

Joan Kanner (07:43)

Well, a few things, you know, I'm just like, here like sitting in awe, quiet, listening and not thinking about what I'm gonna say next. 

Michelle Bond

[laughs]

Joan Kanner

But I do wanna say a few things. One, I am shocked to shit that anyone had the attention span to talk to somebody for over 10 minutes at a party. 

Michelle Bond (07:49)

Yeah.

Joan Kanner

Two, I'm surprised he wasn’t, like, looking over your shoulder to see which other cool person could be there.

Michelle Bond

Right, like at a networking gig or something. 

Joan Kanner

Which I fucking hate. Oh fuck that, looking at like your name tags and shit.

Michelle Bond

Yeah. Who else's badge is [cooler]? Yeah.

Joan Kanner (08:11)

And a couple more points, Michelle. One is that it sounds like it could have been like a lowercase H healing…

Michelle Bond

Hmmm

Joan Kanner

… as an experience and like the last thing I'll say is that there should be a school for that..

Michelle Bond (08:23)

Right, yeah.

Joan Kanner

You know? I mean just like just some like some social skills or something to be able to incorporate that because again the three questions helped me because like I, I don't want to be the person who complains about a behavior and also does it myself I want to make sure I'm in a place of self-reflection. But that's just a remarkable experience .I mean it sounds like emotionally corrective to be honest.

Michelle Bond

Yeah, it definitely was right setting in ways that apparently stuck with me. I mean, I don't even know, he probably doesn't even remember my name. And I honestly am not sure I remember his, but it's just interesting. 

Joan Kanner (08:55)

Doesn't matter, it's how you left feeling, truly. 

Michelle Bond

Yeah, completely. So.

Joan Kanner

And speaking of how you left feeling, I hope that we leave our listeners feeling, “eh.” 

[laughs]

Michelle Bond (09:04)

Yeah. [laughs]

Joan Kanner

If not better, having heard this bonus episode. Takeaways include: don't think about what your gonna be saying while listening to somebody. Try not to anyway. And then when someone brings something up, before you offer advice, definitely take the time to ask three different questions.

Michelle Bond

Yeah, and appreciate and uphold those people who get it right too. I think we need more of that.

Joan Kanner (09:32)

Yeah, like more praises and like more good examples. And this has been an example of a bonus episode, of proofing stage. Again, I'm Joan Kanner.

Michelle Bond (09:41)

I'm Michelle Bond, we'll catch you next time.