In Service of Food Businesses

Sue Ellsworth (she/her), Manager of Piedmont Food Processing Center
and Founder of WE Power Food 

In the food industry, facing challenges is like battling summer heat—you can’t escape it, but you can learn to thrive with the right supports. In this episode of Proofing Stage, hosts Michelle Bond and Joan Kanner explore the realities with Sue Ellsworth, Manager of Piedmont Food Processing Center and Founder of WE Power Food, about running a shared kitchen successfully.

Sue reveals how the center evolved into a 10,200 square-foot haven for 65 companies, navigating cross-contamination and overcrowding with its unique setup. She emphasizes the importance of truly serving the entrepreneurs who use the facility by championing the art of starting small, testing products at farmers’ markets, and using raw, unbiased feedback to improve them before going big on packaging and marketing.

Michelle and Joan serve up their own tales from Bottoms Up Bagels (BUB), underscoring the goldmine that is direct customer feedback and how it helped inform their product development and the overall BUB brand. Whether you are a food business owner, consumer or champion, tune in to this episode for sharp insights, practical advice, and a dose of real-world grit on fostering a thriving food business ecosystem.

Highlights include:

• Building a community of would-be competitors
• Navigating red tape of food entrepreneurship
• Nitty gritty in regulations and labeling
• Tanking two of our episode sponsors
• Passion, vision (and an assist!) are all equally necessary
• Long-term thinking impacts “success” and can fight food insecurity
• Opportunity calling (but Kool Kat Sue sends them to voicemail)

Links

Connect with Sue Ellsworth:

WE Power Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/WEPowerNC

WE Power Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/we_power_food1/

WE Power website: www.wepowerfood.org

PFPC Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/PFAPNC

PFPC website: www.pfapnc.org

More on food business startups and spaces S1: EP3, Share Kitchen Confidential

Theme music by Thorn Haze

Additional music by William King (via Pixabay), SergePavkinMusic (via Pixabay)

Artwork by Lisa Orye

Executive Producers, Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

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Transcript

Sue Ellsworth (00:00.174)
Sometimes I think the heat is worse. At least with the cold, you can put more clothes on. 

Joan Kanner
I agree.

Sue Ellsworth
It's not what you can do with the heat. 

Joan Kanner
No, for sure. Although,like clubbing back in New Jersey back in the day. I'm sure I can do it like tomorrow and be ready for it again. Why do we not wear jackets? Why? It would be like 20 degrees out or lower. And there I was in Hoboken thinking like... 

Michelle Bond
You want to look cute. 

Joan Kanner
I honestly didn't want to pay for coat check. 

Sue Ellsworth
Didn't want to lose it when I was drinking.

Michelle Bond
See? three different answers. 

Joan Kanner
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

Sue Ellsworth
Winner! 

[podcast intro begins]

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure.

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kanner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner.

Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories. I come to the table with a ton of customer service and compliance experience, from a sports complex startup to new university centers to many years in grants and contracts administration, not to mention social science research, including focus group and survey work.

Michelle Bond
And I've combined a passion for hospitality, communications, and PR with community development and diversity training, all with the aim of engaging others to actively show up in the spaces we all occupy. Together, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between "Atta girl!" and "I told you so."

[podcast intro ends]

Joan Kanner (02:10.286)
Today we're here with Sue Ellsworth, Manager of Piedmont Food Processing Center and Founder of WE Power Food. Welcome, Sue. 

Sue Ellsworth
Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Joan Kanner
You know, today we would be remiss if we didn't tie, loosely tie back, to Season One, Episode Three: Shared Kitchen Confidential, which all too many listeners liked. And I'm so grateful, Sue, that you actually did your homework and checked out that episode, too. 

Sue Ellsworth
I did. It was very informative and it gave me an idea of what we could be talking about.

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
[laughs]

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Joan Kanner
Well, you didn't say "informative" in your email, but I think we're going to get to that too. A little saltier language: "What in the world are people...?" 

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
"That's not a kitchen I... That's not a kitchen I would run." 

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
You don't sound like that. You sound much, today you sound like more like Kathleen Turner. Are you having allergy issues? 

Sue Ellsworth
I am having allergy issues. Thank you for pointing that out. 

Michelle Bond
Oh... [laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
Sniffily, sneezing, running eyes, cough. It's terrible. Sucks. 

Michelle Bond
Damn it. Yeah, this time of year. 

Sue Ellsworth
Yeah. 

Michelle Bond
Well, yeah, I'm sorry for that. Thank you for being present with us today and we'll take you however you are. So...

Sue Ellsworth
Thank you.

Joan Kanner
Yeah. 

Sue Ellsworth
That's not a lot of options. So this is it. 

Joan Kanner
[laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
Oh, I love it. So our connection - and Michelle, you have a bunch to say about this too - but we met when we were touring kitchens through our business Bottoms Up Bagels. We had the opportunity to do the Roadshow. By opportunity, we mean we fucking gave it to ourselves by planning and talking to people and making things happen. And your connection to you to me is so meaningful because we met through Kate Wiggins. and we initially met her through our first Roadshow stop ever in 2019 in Bozeman, Montana. To then like reconnect with her - over some beers - and then to, to meet you. I mean, I just had to go there. 

And to be able to like have that relationship, you know, stay through even like the, you know, the pandemic and post that with Kate. And then to have her just say you, "if you're checking out facilities, you need to check out Sue's place."

Sue Ellsworth
Kate is wonderful. And that was an interesting connection. I worked with Kate through her work at the small business center over in Durham. And then she joined the, the crew over at NC Idea, a philanthropic organization located in Durham. And she has now ventured off to do some stuff on her own.

Proofing Stage (04:38.254)
So congratulations to Kate out there in the 'sphere. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah.

Sue Ellsworth
But then when we really started talking, I believe we talked about the fact that I also had family out in Montana. And I mentioned to you that my cousin is the local news producer or news, what's the term? 

Michelle Bond
Anchor.

Sue Ellsworth
Anchor person.

Joan Kanner
Anchor. Yeah. 

Sue Ellsworth
Out there in Polson, Montana. So small world. Everything goes around. Yeah, that is true.

Michelle Bond
Again, we're excited to have you with us. There's so many different places this conversation can go. But I did want to just talk a little bit about obviously the processing center itself. I think it was also to the, the team member that we had doing research for Roadshow, I think had independently found out about the Piedmont Processing Center. And so I love it when like things come together like that, right? And then and then Kate also said the same thing. So...

But I remember having a pretty in-depth phone call with you and Eric about just the offerings, but also clearly you all trying to figure out what our deal was and make sure that we were not, I don't know, that we would be a good fit. And so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about - and then obviously that was reinforced when we also came to visit. We had a tour of the great facility, all the rooms, your processes and then also we sat down for quite a while to talk about it. 

So can you tell just for our listeners a little bit about the Center and maybe how it's different than some of the other models for shared kitchens and commissaries? 

Sue Ellsworth
Sure.

Michelle Bond
And then I want to later we can talk about fit and how you find your members and things like that. 

Sue Ellsworth
Okay, so the facility I'm at is called Piedmont Food Processing Center and we're located in Hillsborough, North Carolina, the County of Orange within North Carolina. And we're a 10,200 square foot facility. We have existed for approximately 12 years now. So that's a pretty good length of time for a shared commercial kitchen. There are many of them popping up all over the place, but to have one that actually has some history and has some experience is pretty unique. So I'm very glad to be here.

Sue Ellsworth (07:01.198)
We currently serve about 65 individual companies here. 

Michelle Bond
Oh, wow. 

Sue Ellsworth
And we have a variety of consumer packaged goods. So a product that goes into a package and goes onto a store shelf. Food trucks, caterers, and meal prep folks. The majority of our clients do, do consumer packaged goods. So I have developed a little niche in being an expert in the regulations...

Michelle Bond
Yes.

Sue Ellsworth
... and marketing and getting you inspected and getting your product approved and onto a store shelf. It is a very unique facility. We are an organization that is run as a not-for-profit business, though we don't qualify as a nonprofit. 

Michelle Bond
Hmmm...

Sue Ellsworth
We don't qualify as a nonprofit because we're open to everybody. We want to give everybody the same opportunity for advancing, starting their startup food company.

Our facility is set up differently than most shared kitchens. And I'm assuming as you guys have been on your Roadshow, you've checked out a few kitchens across the country. 

Joan Kanner
And we've also worked at a one for a long time, for like a long, long time. 

Sue Ellsworth
That's right.

Joan Kanner
Hence Shared Kitchen Confidential. 

Sue Ellsworth
Right, right. So our kitchen is designed so that we have four individual kitchens. And I think we're unique in that a lot of shared spaces now you walk in and it's one big shared area. And you might have four or five stoves in that one area, a couple of reach-ins, whatever other equipment. And people are bumping into each other and cutting behind each other. And I have to think about the poor baker. Maybe she's making brownies, but there's a caterer next to her who is doing something with fish. I don't want my brownies to have a fish taste to them.

Michelle Bond
[laughs] right.

Sue Ellsworth
I don't want that smell, whatever it could be. So our kitchens, we have four individual kitchens - two are full cooking kitchens. So full catering kitchens. We are also set up so that we have bottling equipment. We have two 60 gallon steam kettles, 35 gallon steam or tilt skillet, all of the equipment you need for catering; convection ovens...

Sue Ellsworth (09:23.79)
Stovetop grill. All of that fun stuff. But then we also have two kitchens that don't have any cooking equipment in them at all. And they are designed more for people who are making ice cream; people who are doing dry fill products - protein mixes, non-cooking products. And it's really mind-blowing to me how much of that is out there these days. 

When we first came in here 12 years ago, I came in as a client, so I've been in the building for almost 11 years. I managed a startup food company here that became a national brand within a couple of years. So at that time, this facility literally had 13 companies producing out of here. And a couple of those companies rented exclusive rights to use certain kitchens. Nobody else could use them. When those companies left, the company that I was with sold and I took a position here at Piedmont Food.

We shifted that model so that we could have a greater impact on more businesses instead of just providing space for 13 companies. We've now built up to having over 60 companies here. Well, we also have, of course, any good shared kitchen will have, freezer space, refrigerated space, dry storage. You can never have enough dry storage in my opinion, but...

And I feel like we have a duplication of offerings, so we don't just have one walk-in freezer. We have two. 

Michelle Bond
Right.

Sue Ellsworth
We don't have one walk-in cooler. We have two. So if there is ever an issue - and if you've been in a shared kitchen, you know, there's going to be an issue at some point. The freezer is going to go down. Luckily, if that happens, boom, we can move everything really quick into the other freezer...

Michelle Bond
Yeah.

Sue Ellsworth
... or produce cooler or whatever it might be. So what questions do you guys have? 

Joan Kanner
Well, I think we basically, you tanked our sponsor for today. It was going to be Salmon Blondies. The makers of Salmon Blondies. 

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
So thanks a lot. I lost that 20 bucks. 

Sue Ellsworth
Oh, life is hard. 

Joan Kanner
Dang it. 

Joan Kanner
I think there's something that you said, which I found to be the most controversial thing...

Sue Ellsworth
Ooo!

Joan Kanner
...I ever heard about a kitchen. You talked about the businesses you serve. You use the word "serve."

Joan Kanner (11:51.598)
And it was like a record scratch in my brain of like not tying in... Basically like having been a renter at somebody from places specifically, you know, the place that we covered in Season One. I thought that we were meant to serve the people we've rented from in some ways. [laughs] Keeping things clean, being mindful, not asking for much. So when you said "serve," that was impactful to me. It was also impactful for me to like hear that you were open for any business. And I think people don't understand that when you have a nonprofit, you're helping people. I used to like to use this example, like recovering arsonists who are tone deaf. That's a population. 

Sue Ellsworth
There we go. 

Joan Kanner
You know, and like, I feel like people have to understand that it's a different mentality when it comes to that. So there you go. 

Sue Ellsworth
Thank you for pointing that out. I do feel like we serve these folks.

These people come in with amazing ideas. And we're at a time now where people are coming up with very creative ideas. We're at the end of COVID. People had two years to sit home and cook...

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
... and dig out grandma's old recipe book and make it a healthy alternative. So something healthy that taps into the nostalgia factor. "Grandma used to make this and we loved it. But when we look at the ingredients, it's horrible. So how can I clean this up? How can I make this something now that's pertinent to what's going on now?" 

I really, I do serve these people. I want them to come in and know that no idea is a bad idea. But I also need them to be open to suggestions. They can't come in with this very clear cut "this is how it's gonna happen." Because that's usually not how it's going to happen. 

Michelle Bond
100%.

Sue Ellsworth
We've had people come in and have a very, "this is what I want to make." And in the process of trying to make that, they realize the shelf life is so short, I'm never going to be able to do this. So they pivot and they come up with something else. And I want to be that person that helps them facilitate that pivot, who helps them kind of look beyond what they're doing right now to look into the future.

Sue Ellsworth (14:16.462)
But at the same time, I also want to help them keep it real because entrepreneurs are a very unique group of people. They really are talented. They're creative and they have a lot of drive. So they have a lot of dreams and ambition and that is a wonderful thing. But somebody has to help them make it happen and keep it real and keep their feet on the ground. When someone comes in here and they say, "my ultimate goal is in, to be in every Walmart in the country." I mean, I literally will have to walk out of the room, laugh for a few minutes, compose myself and go back in. 

Michelle Bond
Right.

Sue Ellsworth
Cause it's like, really? Why Walmart? Nothing against Walmart, but that's the goal? There's so many other avenues nowadays. And if you actually want to make money at this, we have to take it in incremental steps. We can't just immediately shoot for the moon.

I want you to think about shooting for the moon. I just don't want you to try to do it right at the very first phase of your business.

[musical interlude]

Joan Kanner (15:31.31)
Without the dream, I feel like that's, you can't pass through. You can't push through a rainy Saturday with sideways winds at a farmer's market without having the dream. 

Sue Ellsworth
You have to. 

Joan Kanner
Kind of like pushing your sails. So I do appreciate you have to be grounded. And I think part of the thing with the pod is that we're gonna be talking about everything from like, how do you select a pest management company? To like, you know, how can you make a proper exit out of your business and consider those things. So I think that like, what you're saying to me is that, you do honor their dreams, but you do also want to tie it back to the reality, the mechanics of where things could work out. Cause like you may be better off self distributing. You might be better off selling like your, your IP might be better off selling to Erewhon, which is more like high end than a Walmart. 

Sue Ellsworth
Right. I think that's absolutely true. 

Michelle Bond
That role is so invaluable to that you, that you're outlining because I think especially post-COVID - and even before. But you know, we talk a lot about hustle culture and things. And I think it's very easy for someone with an idea or a passion, and drive to just be off and running. And they might have a business plan and they might have a great marketing sense and they might have a lot of people telling them everything that they want to hear. But you still need that reality check. And I don't even mean it in like a, to, to like sober you.

Sue Ellsworth
Mmmm, hmmm.

Michelle Bond
I think you just still need that hand to guide you step by step. It's still a step by step process. And I think there's a lot of what Joan calls snake oil sales persons when it comes to entrepreneurship advice. But you know what I mean? Like that's the American ethos, right? It's like, here it is in a package. If you follow these five steps, you'll make a million dollars in your first year. 

Sue Ellsworth
Right.

Michelle Bond
And that's not, I, it's heartbreaking to actually think about because so many people start from that place. And I think that the passion and the vision and all that also just get, they all get muddled together. And I think, you know, what you're talking about is a very steady hand of saying, "all right, all of that is valid. I'm not saying don't let passion drive you. And I'm not saying don't follow entrepreneurial tips, but I'm saying let's look at it all and let's find the threads that are most relevant to your product...

Michelle Bond (17:55.31)
...your consumer, your lifestyle." Something I talk a lot about, which is like, you know, we were working at 1000% for eight years in a row, and that's not really a way to make a life, right? So there's give and take with all of that. And I think having a true mentor, guide, advisor, someone in a role that is thinking about serving its members in that way is just amazing. And I just want to reflect that. 

Sue Ellsworth
Thank you. I think that's a really great comment. It is tough because I want everyone to be successful, but you can almost start to identify the qualities about people that will lend them to being successful. But I don't want to make a statement where it sounds like when someone comes in and I sit down with them, I start judging them because that is not the case. What I'm looking at is: do they have the ability to change themselves, grow themselves in ways that will lend them to being a better entrepreneur? And one of the things that I want them to do is immediately start to think about: how am I going to exit this business?

And when you have your first meeting with somebody and you start talking about, well, what's the plan five years from now and how are you going to get out of this business? It's mind blowing to them because they're not thinking that far ahead. So when I meet with people and we start the process of you're doing a consumer packaged good, let's help you get inspected. Let's help you get into a store. We're also having conversations because telling their story is really important, particularly on a local level. 

Michelle Bond
Right.

Sue Ellsworth
I'm gonna buy their product the first time probably because of their story, particularly at a farmer's market where I can have direct contact with that entrepreneur. It's a little bit more difficult when it's on a store shelf. That's where having a little blurb of their story is incredibly important because I'm gonna pick it up and look at their story, especially if it says it's local. Because I wanna buy as much local as I can. I think one of the...

Sue Ellsworth (20:17.166)
...traps that entrepreneurs fall into is that there's a predetermined definition of what success is. They come in thinking, "I have to compare myself to this other company, this other person, this other woman." And that's not what I want them to walk away with. And I make it very clear to them that they define what success is. I am not sitting at the table and telling them what that means.

So I want them to be able to articulate to me, what does success look like to me a year from now, three years from now, five years from now? And I want to help them make that happen. But at the same time, I want to keep their ideas open to the possibilities of what can be. Because some people come in with a very narrow definition of what I want to do. "I want to make these rolls and I want to sell them at the farmer's market every week." So, okay, when we go through your inspection, are we going to just talk about selling and direct to the consumer? And that's one type of inspection? Or are we going to talk about maybe in two years, I want to think about wholesaling my product and getting it into stores. So let's think about that now. And let's set you up. Let's make sure that you're complying with all the rules and regulations to cover that right at the very beginning. So when that opportunity presents itself, you're ready to go. And we don't have to sit down again in two years and start the whole process over again for you to be able to wholesale your product versus direct to the consumer. 

Joan Kanner
I was thinking about as someone who was, I previously created like a, while I was still working like full time for universities, I created like a mobile app. I started with a minimally viable product that I created myself - the wire frame. When it came to Bottoms Up Bagels, Michelle and I and a couple of friends who helped us start initially who then left the business. But we just want to do like the cheapest event with the smallest amount of product and a decent menu that represented what we wanted to envision things to be to test things out. And we did it that way. I can't help but wonder if part of your process of working with people is also helping get that mindset of just like not doing it all at once.

Joan Kanner (22:39.758)
Doing a minimally viable product, whatever that means for them, and then just like testing it before they make 18 iterations of their granola. 

Sue Ellsworth
Totally. And that's why I think starting out at farmers markets is really, really important. One of the other things that I talk to people about, they often, they often are a little surprised by, I think. And I also teach a consumer packaged goods course four or five times a year.

And I talk about this in this course. Who has tried your product that is not your friend or family? Because your friends and family are going to tell you what they think you want to hear. You need to talk to people who don't know you at all, have no attachment to you, and have no reason to lie to you. Because people have brought stuff into me in the past where they have come in and said, "this is the best [insert product name] you've ever had in your life." And then they want you to eat it in front of them. And if you know me, you know that I cannot hide any expression on my face. I can't, I am almost 60 years old. We all have our faults, man. And this is one of mine...

Joan Kanner
No, it's not.

Sue Ellsworth
... and I've decided to give up on even trying to hide it anymore. 

Michelle Bond
No poker face.

Sue Ellsworth
So one thing I loved about COVID was we had to wear a mask so people, I didn't have to try their products in front of me. 

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
That's so, so bad because I love the enthusiasm. I love the excitement. But you know what? Not every product is fabulous. And that's okay. 

Michelle Bond
Or scalable. 

Sue Ellsworth
Right, right. Exactly. But it's really important to have that direct connection with the consumer right at the very beginning because if you sell 10 of them, 10 whatevers, in an hour at the farmers market and five people come back and say, "wow, that's too salty," you need to listen to that. And you need to be willing to tweak your recipe a little bit. And let's tweak it before we spend $10,000 on packaging with a nutrition panel and ingredient statements that we can't necessarily change until we change our packaging.

Joan Kanner (25:01.55)
Again, there's so much I need to like, just think about what you just said. So before I go back to, I went also to talk about the idea of like, pitch decks and pitching and, you know, brick and mortar versus CPG in terms of fundability. But I think that the point about data collection to me is very important. When I, as part of my 15 years in grants and contracts administration, I worked in social science research and I did lots of survey work and focus groups and that ties into like my absolute love of training and like, and teaching adults really, really boring things and trying to make it like really interesting for them, like grant systems. 

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
But with BUB and being at farmer's markets, always - even if you have staff members doing the handing out of whatever the thing is and the money exchange and whatnot - you need to be present as the owner or owners to listen to what people are saying in terms of your point of when people come back. How to tweak things, you also need to be able to do something really simple. There are a lot of great tools and this is not a sponsor yet, but I definitely use SurveyMonkey. 

Sue Ellsworth
Mmmm, hmmm.

Joan Kanner
It would be like with my app or with BUB, and we just had like a three-question survey and that helped guide us to know where people wanted to see our food and also guide the development of other recipes. I mean, we already had a few different ones in mind and then based on the feedback, we decided to focus on one. Like one new thing and that was our cinnamon raisin bagel back in the day. It does not cost a lot to make these things happen. I feel like now I'm kind of forcing myself into an episode where I walk people through how they can like gain this [insight]. But we've been at events like when we were in Ohio; Michelle, you know this. I was, I, because of our setup and because of our staffing, I had to be on the hot line. And I told our team member, I was like, "can you, can you move my section up so I can like still use one ear to hear what people are saying?" 

And then I think like, of course, somebody can go over this another episode. You, someone, if five people think it's like too salty, but 18 don't, also factor that in...

Sue Ellsworth
Exactly.

Joan Kanner
... in terms of realizing you cannot make everybody happy. Your audience is not everybody - get that shit in your head right now. There's plenty of people who think our bagels are too chewy. You know what? It is for them. That's fine. I'm not trying to make them happy. Enjoy your grocery store bagel. And I mean that non-sarcastically.

Joan Kanner (27:23.15)
Eat the things that make you happy, enjoy things that make you happy. I'm not here to please you because I'll be, I would be watering down the business. 

Sue Ellsworth
So I totally agree with that. And I hope that my previous comment conveyed that. 

Michelle Bond
Oh, for sure.

Sue Ellsworth
I totally believe you need to get feedback. and much like you, I also have a background in doing surveys and writing surveys. 

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
And so I bring that into what I do now. And it is really important not to just say to someone, "Here, try a sample of this. Do you like it?" You've got to ask a couple of questions. Not too many. You know, do you, "do you like it? Would you pay money for it?" I think that's one of the most important questions you can ask. 

Michelle Bond
How much would you pay for it? 

Joan Kanner
When the feedback comes back and it's qualitative, right? Versus quantitative, but there's different reasons you'd want to have both. You have to score or categorize qualitative differently. God, I'm pushing myself into this fucking episode about like how to do this work. 

Sue Ellsworth
God, I did this, too. 

Joan Kanner
Son of a bitch! I have to go back...

Michelle Bond
A duo situation, yeah. 

Joan Kanner
I think I have to bring in also like a dear friend, but also like a brilliant person who helped me with some of the app development, Marie, who I will not mention like her last name right now, because she does listen to the pod, and she will give me a hard time about how to do focus work. But focus group work. But where I was going with this, is that the, you know, the answer should not be good.

Good tells me fucking ugatz. It tells me shit. You know, someone just says like, "just that's enough spice" oh, that tells me something that's helpful to me. You like it because of that. 

Sue Ellsworth
And that's not just about the quality of the food either. It also has to do with packaging. It has to do with the logo. 

Michelle Bond
Mmmm...

Sue Ellsworth
And I'm going to assume this woman may or may not listen to your, your podcast, but I was working with an entrepreneur who came in and she was very much tied to her logo. And I gotta tell you... 

Joan Kanner
Uh, ah...

Sue Ellsworth
... it wasn't connecting with me. And I have an organization, you mentioned it, called WE Power Food. And we were having a monthly meeting. So we had 25 women there. And there was one new person who was joining us that week. The logo came out, the woman was doing samples of her product. And she looked at it and just really point blank said, "well, that looks like a...

Sue Ellsworth (29:42.382)
...specific piece of woman's anatomy." And then once you looked at it, it was like, my God, that was all I could see from that point on. She didn't see it. Everyone in the room, that was all they saw from that point on. That logo was still out there. And it's like, man, that's all I see when I look at it. So you have to be open to every aspect of the product. It's not just about the taste. It's about the packaging, the logo, how you're presenting it. It's every aspect. So when people come in and they're very narrow minded, that causes me concern. Are we going to be able to work with them to get them to be open to changing things up at all?

[ad for Proofing Stage+]

Michelle Bond
Hey guys, guess what? We're on Patreon now. So you can support the show with a modest monthly donation or check out some free stuff that we have there. Extra bonus content comes out every other week, so in between episodes, you won't miss anything. 

Joan Kanner
Some of that bonus content will be skills-based. You can learn a little extra from the people that we have on as guests or ourselves. And when we have a Patreon community, what will we have? Some Q &A sessions with us and other people who are guests.

I mean, let's get a little more interactive. Let's support each other differently. Socials can go away, but us and Patreon, that's for life. 

Michelle Bond
So find us on Patreon.com slash Proofing Stage. And thanks for your support.

[end of ad for Proofing Stage+]

Sue Ellsworth
One of the first things I like to tackle with people is how can we clean your ingredients up? 

Michelle Bond
Hmmm...

Sue Ellsworth
Nothing worse than having an ingredient statement on a package that's four inches long. 

Michelle Bond
Ooof, yeah.

Sue Ellsworth
You know? How can we clean this up with some very simple things? And if you are immediately getting, "oh, no, no, no, no, this is the way I do it. I'm not open to trying anything. It has to stay this way." I question how far they'll go.

Sue Ellsworth (31:44.046)
You have to be willing to experiment a little bit. Is there any big difference in using table salt versus sea salt? Maybe, maybe there isn't, but some stores are not going to carry you because you're using iodized table salt. 

Michelle Bond
Right. Right.

Sue Ellsworth
So be open to the possibility that just by switching to sea salt might make it possible for me to get into a co-op or whatever it is. Yeah. 

Michelle Bond
And to me Sue, that, I mean, the very practical application to what you're saying, it also makes me think of that statement about the exit and what success looks like to you. And then where I go is like who you are as a business, because it's okay. Like there's, there's, we, we often talk about like the shopkeep versus the like national brand, you know, and you can make arguments for both, but if you have enough guidance in helping you to think about that very early on, it actually makes everything down to what kind of salt you're using much clearer. Because if you want to be on store shelves in certain places and like if, if, if, if, if, if, then some of these decisions become very clear and then you don't even have to agonize it and you, you well know, right? Entrepreneurs will agonize about everything because everything feels like it is going to make and break you at every decision point. So if you take things like which salt I'm using or what scale I'm looking for or if my logo is important to me personally and I just want to run my own business and have something that is uniquely expressing me and I want to do it once a week and have a little extra money, fine.

But if I want something to resonate and 99% of people are telling me it doesn't resonate, then I automatically have another set of decisions made. And I think those things are really important in getting that balance right of saying, "I see who you are and what you're trying to do and what your strengths are. And also here's what we can do if there's a little bit of porousness in the way that you're thinking about it."

Sue Ellsworth (34:07.502)
That's a great comment because one of the things that I found is when people come in and they first start working with me, I asked them what their story is and they tell me their story. And it sounds kind of methodical and I'm like, okay, this doesn't sound authentic, but I don't call them on that. In the process of getting a consumer package good approved, you'll probably meet with me at least three times. And every time we're going to talk about your story.

And what I find amazing is by the time we get to that third meeting, and I've shared a little bit about myself as well, I allow myself to be vulnerable with these people so that they trust me. We often find that their story is completely different than what they originally came in and told me their story was. So we work on drawing that out, but I don't want to focus on it too much right at the beginning.

Because once people start to trust you, they're more willing to really tell you what the story is. And then we can help them craft that story in a way that is absolutely true and authentic. Because with social media these days, if you try to lie, if you try to falsify your story, social media can tear you up. So you want to make sure that it really is authentic. I also work with a lot of women and we live in a crazy world these days. So I have to make sure that they're telling a story that is authentic, reflects their product, but also protects them at the same time. 

Joan Kanner
Next point is that I just got a text message that we lost another sponsor thanks to what Sue said about logos. 

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
It's the Georgia O 'Keefe Museum also just dropped us as a sponsor. 

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
You're welcome.

Joan Kanner
Slainte! Bottoms up on that asshole. Thanks, Sue.

Michelle Bond
So my background too is also in PR and marketing and branding prior to food. So I've always had this, I've always had this obsession with branding, like from being a kid. And, but the thing that I both, I love about it versus marketing is that it really is about the, spirit of a business and the, the ability to connect with your customer.

Michelle Bond(36:35.31)
It's not just about something that looks good. And so I was talking last season about just, we didn't have a logo for our business the first year and a half that we were, you know, we had a place placeholder very much what we called a placeholder because we, we had an idea who we were, but we needed to test it and we needed to get the feedback from our customers and we needed to see if it resonated and also it costs money, right?

Sue Ellsworth
Right. 

Michelle Bond
So as cringy as it can be to not put out the most beautiful looking thing from jump. I think even if people, if you, if you come into it, knowing that it's going to be, a placeholder or a starter. And as you develop your business and as you develop your customer base, then you can really create something that has teeth to it that is spot on that you can have for years and years and years. 

Sue Ellsworth
Thank you. Because that is incredibly important.

And that is something that entrepreneurs have a really hard time dealing with. They expect that the first round of their packaging is going to be just beautiful. It's going to be exceptional. And I talk about generational packaging with them. 

Michelle Bond
Mmmm... love that.

Sue Ellsworth
And I actually have products that I use as examples. So here is this product, Cake Mix. Look at what it was. It was a craft bag rolled over, sealed on the top with a label stuck on it.

And she's probably done... this is a business that's been around for 10, 12 years. So she's done many different iterations of her packaging and now she's got the beautiful printed bags. They're beautiful, multicolored, but it took her a long time to get to that point. 

Michelle Bond
Mmmm, hmmm.

Sue Ellsworth
And you really have to refine everything to be able to put the money into the quantities that you have to buy when you're going with printed film...

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Sue Ellsworth
... that make it worthwhile. You're not ordering a thousand of those. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Sue Ellsworth
You know. Well, you can, but then you're paying $2 and 50 cents per bag. 

Michelle Bond
Right, right. It doesn't make sense. 

Sue Ellsworth
You know, I've got a guy right now who's doing a product that he's paying a dollar 80 a bag. 

Michelle Bond
Ooof.

Sue Ellsworth
So his product has been sold for like 7.99 in a store when all of your competition is at 3.99. 

Michelle Bond
Wow.

Sue Ellsworth
You might have a fabulous product...

Sue Ellsworth (39:02.606)
Have you looked at the economy these days? 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. You need to get it to people. 

Sue Ellsworth
Right. Right. So that's, that's really important that people understand their packaging will change as they go along. Even national name brand companies change their packaging from time to time. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. And I think it, to me, it's also tied to that idea of like that get rich quick type stuff, which is like, "oh, my business is my packaging."

Like I think there's a very, it's very easy to get, and this is not usually people like really doing the work. I think this is usually, well, I shouldn't say that, but you know, there's this mindset of like, "I have a business plan. I have an idea. I may get some money. I have a business." Versus I think people who come at it from more of a, "I have a vision. I have a product. You know, I'm trying to match it with my customer." But I mean, there's all, you know, obviously a whole range of, folks and what they're doing.

But that idea of like, well, I don't know, but "I got this good looking logo. I got this good looking..." We've been to farmers markets with people where they have like a beautiful sign and a banner that has, you know, clearly they've put some bucks in doing and they haven't sold their first cup of anything yet. You know, and I think it's, I don't, I don't necessarily blame people. I think that's what we're told, right? It's like, if it's flashy and it's attractive and it sounds good, you're great. And, so keeping that measure of, I think, realistic expectations, but also the opportunity to have your business reflect not only your vision and your passion, but your customer. If your customer sees themself in what you're doing, you've got them. You've got them for a generation, like you said. 

Sue Ellsworth
And you brought up a couple of things that prompted ideas in my mind. I watch a lot of entrepreneurs come in who have business plans and they've met with this group and they've met with that organization. And I've gone through this 12-week bootcamp on how to be an entrepreneur. And I love, I love that there are these organizations out there. I love that there are these opportunities for people. What breaks my heart is when they're working with an organization who is not focused on food.

Sue Ellsworth (41:29.806)
They're focused on entrepreneurship overall, and they're providing guidance and advice to someone on regulations that they don't know and they don't understand. And someone has spent 12 weeks going through a course, so they've developed a relationship with whoever the head of that course is, whoever their mentor, their guiding person. And then they come to me, and they come in with their packaging, their logo. Everything's all set and ready to go. 

And I have to look at it and be like, "well, you don't have this on here. You don't have that on there. This label won't pass inspection." And they're like "no, no, no. I've been working with so-and-so and they assured me it will." And it's like, they start out immediately not trusting me because "I've been working with this person for 12 weeks. I've built a relationship with them. I trust them. They know what they're talking about."

And then I sit down and start critiquing it and they've already, they've already spent $5,000 on packaging and I have to tell them it's wrong. You won't pass. And we have to start over. You know, maybe you didn't even list your allergens. There's no getting around that. You know, other things you can kind of fake your way through sometimes. Ingredient statements, allergen statements, those are required. Those are vital. Those protect your ass.

You know, nobody wants to kill anybody by not saying we have peanuts in this and handing it out to someone with peanuts [allergies]. So yeah, I think it's really important that community partners work together. And I know that a lot of people like to pass themselves off as an expert in their field. And you can be an expert in many different fields. But if you are not an expert in a certain area, there should be no shame in admitting that. So when you come to me, I am not going to help you write a business plan. That's not what I do. But I can connect you with people...

Sue Ellsworth (43:40.238)
...who can help you write a business plan. And I have reached out to those organizations that I refer people to, to have a really honest conversation about, you don't know how to put a food label together. Please don't try to fake your way through that process. Admit that you don't know how to do it and send them to me and I'll help them. Just like I'm gonna say, I'm not an expert at putting a business plan together and I'm gonna send them to you. And when you can build those relationships with those community organizations, I think that's incredibly powerful. And I would highly recommend any shared kitchen across the country - reach out to those community organizations and have very open conversations because all that will do is empower food entrepreneurs to be more successful with their businesses. 

Michelle Bond
I mean, we touched on it in other conversations too. It's like, that's our biggest complaint with all of these incubators and mentors and small business programming. None of them deal in food, none of them. And they're not, it's a totally, I mean, it's a totally different animal, just even starting with the place that you're talking about with the regulations. But I mean, most people are in these white collar positions, sitting behind a desk, trying to, you know, scale a business that is very much service-based in that way. That's very different than the people that you have coming in physically making a product that needs to be on shelves, that needs to reach different people, that has very different margins. It's not just about like, you know, education economy. And so absolutely. 

And I think you make a really good plea to organizations such as yourself to make those kind of connections within the, for the very well-intentioned, you know, resources for entrepreneurs that exist in their local communities. 

Sue Ellsworth
There are so many. There are small business centers. North Carolina has small business centers. I don't know about where you guys are, but every community college has a small business center associated with it. We have small business technology development centers. Most counties have economic development. You've got organizations like SCORE, Women's Business Resource Centers, different places like that. Having those real conversations with them. I don't always...

Sue Ellsworth (46:05.742)
I hate being identified as an expert in my area. It's not a term that I was comfortable with people throwing around. And I don't call myself an expert. And if you really, you look up PFAP, we don't really talk about being an incubator that much. It's just something we feel like we have to do. It's part of having a shared commercial kitchen. Managing a shared commercial kitchen is making sure that all of the folks who are using the facility have the availability to tap into resources. It just seems right to me. I don't understand why all kitchens don't do that. And I think one thing that amazes a lot of people who come here is we don't charge for that. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah.

Sue Ellsworth
That's just included. I think even when we all sat down, there were different things we talked about. And I could tell sometimes you were a little taken aback because it was like, "are they offering this? Is this, do I pay for this or, you know, how does it work?" 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Sue Ellsworth
It's so important that.... there are so many barriers that folks are going to have to deal with anyway, to launching a food business that we make it as easy as possible for them to tap into the resources and a strong network of people who will support them because they sincerely want to see them be successful, however they classify successful or define successful.

[musical interlude]

Joan Kanner(47:56.846)
I think you're also able to then like have better tenants. 

Sue Ellsworth
Mmmm, hmmm.

Joan Kanner
You know, so it's not like, it's not like, you know, like, not to say you're not a bleeding heart in some ways. I just think there's just like, practically speaking, you get better tenants, you get people who are happier with being there, you get better hygiene. Like it really just helps the ecosystem be able to do that. I think when we met, I was still, we had been to a bunch of different like really interesting kitchen across the US. I think many of them function fairly well. Some of them to me like had extra like a... I do care about rules, but sometimes rules get in the way of when they don't make sense. They frustrate even someone like me who's so like rules-driven. 

Michelle Bond
[Laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
Yeah.

Joan Kanner
I'm like, why am I documenting when things are clean? Shouldn't I document? Cause that should be, there's, there's more incidents theoretically of what's clean versus what's not. But we had been in a space for many years. I think that we over-proofed in there. Just giving Michelle a lead-in to her question eventually. It was, it was a shared kitchen initially built as an incubator. But then didn't really have the services around stuff. I mean, thankfully they didn't take equity. I don't, I don't believe that you folks do...

Sue Ellsworth
No, no. Never. 

Joan Kanner
... to have skin in the game in that sense. But I remember being in a, there was a meeting in which case - we were supposed to have like enrichment kind of things where they brought in someone to talk about marketing. And it turns out they didn't vet the person. He was just a random guy who works for Royal Farms in their marketing [department[ who wanted to like talk to small businesses to learn how they market it. So they just gave this guy some audience to kind of like, like a people's zoo checking on these different businesses. And I get your WE Power Food emails. And I forwarded the last one to Michelle, because of someone who's like a marketing and like a, I believe, like PR expert as well, using the word "expert," but someone whose whose job is to focus on those things. 

And it looked so, it looked like you were basically presenting this as a really impactful class to like have some actionable items to take to your, to the people who are part of like WE Power. And something that's simple that should be expected to me was just mind blowing. And I think through all this, we didn't actually didn't get a chance to define or say what WE Power Food is. How did we miss that? 

Sue Ellsworth
WE Power Food is an organization I founded about four years ago when I started to recognize that there were a lot of women businesses that I had worked with over the years...

Sue Ellsworth (50:17.806)
...that were quite successful that just suddenly disappeared one day. And you're kind of looking around going, "hey, remember them? What happened to them?" And having been here long enough, having formed those relationships, I would reach out to them and say, "hey, what happened?" And there were a lot of different things. We're all women. We can kind of imagine the things that came up. "I got married." "I had a baby." "Oh, my kids started playing soccer."
You know, different things like that. And yeah, I don't have any kids. So it was always kind of an area that I was a little unsure about going into, but I couldn't help but think you can have a kid and you can have your food business at the same time. So let's try to think about ways that we can make it a little easier for you. Because I'll make statements and I'm not trying to categorize people, but I've been doing this for a long time. And what I see is oftentimes when businesses that are owned by men come in to meet with us, they come in with their whole posse. They've got a whole crew and everybody's already assigned what role they're going to play. When women come in...

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]
Yeah, it's often that one woman and she's going to do production. She's gonna do sales, she's gonna do distribution, she's gonna do the marketing, she's gonna do it all. And it doesn't take long before you're burning out. And I wanna make... 

Michelle Bond
Preach. 

Sue Ellsworth
Yeah, that they have ways to not burn out. And so some of it is very hands-on. Some of it is recognizing that when the woman who walks by my door, who hasn't brushed her hair in three days, needs someone to tap around the shoulder and just say, how are you doing? And that they know they can answer in a very honest way. The executive director of our facility has an office right next to me. And he mentions this a lot. He'll say people will walk by his office and he'll go, "hey, how are you?" "I'm great. I'm doing this. I'm doing that." They get next door to my office and I'll say, "hey, how's it going?" And the next thing you know, they're sitting in my office in tears.

Sue Ellsworth (52:40.302)
Because they know that they can be vulnerable with me. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah, ugh.

Sue Ellsworth
People need that. People need that person that they feel safe with who they don't think is gonna judge them. Who's gonna listen to what they have to say and not tell them what to do, but give them ideas of how they can move forward. And sometimes that means You need to stop and take a break. 

Joan Kanner
People tell them, will also tell them like not just what to do but like how to feel... 

Sue Ellsworth
Right.

Joan Kanner
...in my experience

Sue Ellsworth
Right. 

Michelle Bond
No, I mean, it's very real. I mean, I think it was part of that episode that we keep referencing where I talked about this being this microcosm of society, right? Where you see these women owned businesses often run by women of color who after a few months, not there anymore, right? 

Sue Ellsworth
Right.

Michelle Bond
Because a, especially a for-profit facility that doesn't have service as its driving factor, it's, it's trying to be a business itself and make money. And I don't fault that, but people do need different things. And systemically, you know, we women, we follow a roadmap that wasn't created by women. 

Sue Ellsworth
Right

Michelle Bond
And we also have all of the other things often, not always, that are part of our identities and part of our responsibilities that perhaps competitors in the same space don't have that we're taking on. But we still believe we can take it on and take it on and take it on because that's what we're supposed to do. And so much of what's driving us now in this phase of our respective journeys as entrepreneurs is exactly what you just said - is helping to make that space where people feel safe and vulnerable to say, "you are not crazy. This is not, you are not..." Yes, in the fact that that example is so powerful of what and you know, nothing against your counterpart, right? But that's the world, that is the way that it works. And so when we show up in business meetings, and with lenders and things, we're, we're acting that one way. And everybody has to do it. I'm not saying, saying men don't have to do it as well. But, but that space of just being, "I know I got this. But right now I'm having a really hard time." And...

Michelle Bond (55:05.614)
And let's tease that apart with people who know what they're talking about, such as yourself, to say, where are the ways that we can support you or that we can point you in the direction of other people who can support you. And that takes some work. Let's be honest, when you talk about like places across the country, why aren't they doing these things? Because it's not easy, and it's not quick, and there's not a lot of money in it. And that's, but that's what it's going to take to help underrepresented founders be anywhere in the same playing field. And it honestly can be emotionally draining as well.

[musical interlude]

Michelle Bond (55:49.07)
So Sue, as you know, we like to ask our guests about something that they might be proofing on, either in the work that they're doing, new projects and concepts, or just in an area unique to them and how they're thinking about the work that they're doing. So what are you proofing on these days? 

Sue Ellsworth
So I think the big thing that I'm proofing on right now is a project that Piedmont Food Processing Center is spearheading. And what we are recognizing is that when people reach a certain level here, there's nowhere else for them to go. So they either have to hold their business steady at what they're doing now. They can't experience any growth. They can't scale up. Or they look for a co-packer. And when you go to a co-packer, the county, the state, often loses the jobs. The entrepreneur loses quality control over their product. A lot of different things happen. The cost can be more. So we are working on developing a food campus in this area, and it will be a private-public partnership. We're looking at a 100,000 square foot facility that will have a couple of anchor tenants there, but we are trying to provide full wraparound services. So let's hope that we have different organizations here, like WE Power will have a presence in this new facility. Perhaps we'll have someone from a local community college who can be that person who can help with preparing a business plan, providing mentoring on how to scale up your business. We'll have several suites for food businesses who don't need to be in a shared space anymore, but they're not ready to buy their own business [property], to have their own facility. We'll also have some co-packing there. And we want to try to tackle many different things with this. So we want to tackle the need for entrepreneurs to have a place to go once they grow out of a facility like this. But we also want to look at how can an organization like this have an opportunity to tackle food insecurity? 

Michelle Bond
Ahhh...

Sue Ellsworth
How can we reach...

Sue Ellsworth (58:17.39)
...farmers? How can we really - and not just reach the farmers that everyone knows about - how do we get down into these really rural communities in North Carolina? And you've been here...

Michelle Bond
Mmmm, hmmm.

Sue Ellsworth
...you know that North Carolina is very agricultural and very rural in certain areas. And something that we're seeing is historical farming, you're losing that generational farming. And how do we help these people keep their land? Is it by providing them an opportunity to have a place to sell their produce, to process their produce, to develop it into something new? Can we also jump on the bandwagon of, can this facility have an organization who's creating healthy meals with local products that the schools could buy, the jails could buy, Meals on Wheels, whatever it could be?

So we're dreaming big. We are shooting for the moon with this because it is really needed. 

Michelle Bond
I love it.

Sue Ellsworth
And to our knowledge, no one across the country is doing anything like that. And we feel like the partners that we're targeting and the expertise that we have in working with food entrepreneurs, we feel like we're the people who will be able to pull this off. 

Joan Kanner
You guys are... I think there are places who do one of those aspects probably decently, right? I mean, there's places that are those examples. It's funny to actually tie this back to our original conversation, in which case you were just talking about like people's dreams and then kind of like having them still have that dream and then move on. It's interesting to like hear you talk about your own dream, knowing how practical and grounded you are. And I can tell you that Michelle and I personally and professionally care about food waste in ways that people cannot imagine. I remember talking with this really, really brilliant person who handles food waste in the bagel industry in New Jersey. And I forgot like her name, apologies. And, and it was foreign language to me because I was trying to say, wait, how many you have, you have bags full of food that you would normally get tossed out and you're helping distribute it. I'm like, that's good bread. You know, that's like a lot of people can benefit. A lot of people would pay for that, you know, which is like, you know, on our end, like we, we made sure that people were paying for things versus like having that go out the door. And when I hear about what you're talking about, I would love to stay connected because I feel like the...

Joan Kanner(01:00:40.558)
...the waste aspect is really important. And also I feel like people have to understand that everyone fucking deserves a chance at meal prep. Everyone deserves a chance at it, to taking advantage of meal prep. Okay? Versus like going to like fast food. And I do have those moments of enjoying fast food, but like, if you can just reach in on a Friday night, I'll say pop in a movie, even though we're all streaming now - you're not really popping it in now, Joan, calm yourself. But just to be able to have that would be life-changing, would also help these, these farmers. And also give people some really good skills in terms of how to make a meal and how to scale it. 

Sue Ellsworth
Absolutely. And one of the things that I love that you're seeing different organizations do, and I really hope we can incorporate this over here. A lot of caterers now and shared kitchens, I'm actually seeing have a refrigerator outside their building where leftovers can be put in. They might be portioned out or food that's getting ready to expire. And the community can come up and take what they need. They don't have to go through a process of how many people live in your household, what's your income? They don't have to go to a food bank. They don't have to beg for food. They can just walk in and take it. I wish we could do something like that, but you've been to our facility. We have no public-facing... We're on a dead end road in an industrial park. So it really doesn't, we can't do anything like that here, but one of my WE Power conferences was in Winston-Salem, the caterer in the facility we use there. She had a kitchen or a refrigerator outside. Everything went into that and it was available to the public. Why is there so much food waste and so many hungry people in this country? It doesn't make any sense. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. And what you're pushing us to do is to, which I think many people within the industry do, but don't have the bandwidth to take on, but you're pushing us to just see these synergies and these connections from different aspects of the industry and how - where applicable - they can come under the same programmatic umbrella and really have much greater impact. You know, and, and I think it's incredible. It's inspiring. I'm sitting here having all of these thoughts about like, you know, ways to hopefully contribute to something like that.

Michelle Bond (01:03:08.206)
And again, we just want to thank you for joining us and for the great conversation, really. 

Sue Ellsworth
Well, thank you for having me. And it's a pleasure to see you guys again. 

Joan Kanner
My god, same here.

Sue Ellsworth
I want to hear more about what's going on with you guys. 

Sue Ellsworth
Oh, for sure, for sure. I think I also kind of want to just tuck away that we may have to before season two ends, maybe have you back on for like another episode. We can drill down the stuff. It may be you, me, Michelle and Marie, I don't know. I don't know if the world's ready for that. That's a lot of woman.

Sue Ellsworth
[laughs]

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

Sue Ellsworth
The world is ready. The world needs to be ready for that.

Michelle Bond (01:04:02.286)
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme song, Bagels for the Kraken, was written and performed by Thorn Haze. Additional music from Pixabay. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes, disclaimers, and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage dot com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Instagram, threads, and TikTok at proofingstage. Visit our Patreon page to support the show and get even more great content. I'm your host Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And I am also your host Joan Kanner. Thanks for listening.