You Gotta Break Up to Break Thru

RescuePoetix™ (she/her/ella/ellas), Poet, Advocate, Artist, Educator

“It’s breaking up and then finding the breakthrough in that breakup,” says RescuePoetix™ as she talks with hosts Michelle Bond and Joan Kanner about her podcast, discussing how breaking up with concepts and constructs can lead to profound insights and personal growth. 

RescuePoetix™—the first Puerto Rican woman poet laureate emeritus of Jersey City—shares her journey as a bilingual, globally published performing poet, advocate, spoken word artist, and educator. A practiced advocate for herself and others, she inspires as an artist manager, and speaks about fair pay for creatives, the heavy toll of trauma on business decisions, and the evolution of her play, “By the Light of the Ghetto Moon.”

We recommend sitting down with a cortado and a buttered roll for this #crewjersey episode as they illustrate and unpack what it’s like to be underrepresented small business owners and artists, tackling topics like the value of art, fair compensation, and intergenerational trauma.

A conversation in the truest sense of the word, these women leverage personal stories to convey:

• The realities of being a BIPOC artist entrepreneur
• Concepts and family cultures that hold us back
• Gritty details like term sheets, valuing time, and building community trust
• Balancing the hustle of chasing opportunities with the wisdom of letting things unfold naturally
• Rights and responsibilities of business leaders
• Breaking cycles and trauma reactions to improve decision-making

Note: There's also a timely mention of Richard Simmons towards the end of this episode. While we had no way of knowing he would pass before we aired, the nod of recognition is still quite fitting. #restinpower

Links

Rescue is part of the Everything is a Story podcast with Dujuana Sharese where extraordinary people share their rights of passage from Breakup to Breakthrough.

Connect with RescuePoetix™
More info: https://linktr.ee/rescuepoetix

Theme music by Thorn Haze

Additional music by Afrobeat reggaeton afro type beat (via Pixabay) and Fresh Morning (via Pixabay)

Artwork by Lisa Orye

Ad written by Joan Kanner

Ad music by BluBonRelaXon (via Pixabay) and Patrizio Yoga (via Pixabay)

Executive Producers, Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

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Transcript

RescuePoetix (00:00.258)
I like the cortado thing. I mean, yeah, why would you not want a cortado in Jersey City? 

Joan Kanner
It's the place to do it. You know? Some buttery bread. Oh my God. I think that has to be a thing. Can I tell you? People I think don't get it. This one has to have like a glossary for people for this episode specifically. 

RescuePoetix
That's great. I mean, buttered roll and coffee? That's the quintessential Jersey breakfast, right? 

Michelle Bond
God, yes, please.

RescuePoetix
Yes. Nice and crunchy - soft on the inside, crunchy on the outside. 

[podcast intro begins]

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure.

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kanner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner.

Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories. I come to the table with a ton of customer service and compliance experience, from a sports complex startup to new university centers to many years in grants and contracts administration, not to mention social science research, including focus group and survey work.

Michelle Bond
And I've combined a passion for hospitality, communications, and PR with community development and diversity training, all with the aim of engaging others to actively show up in the spaces we all occupy. Together, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between "Atta girl!" and "I told you so."

[podcast intro ends]

Joan Kanner (02:07.598)
Welcome to Proofing Stage, on today's episode we have RescuePoetix, who is an independent artist entrepreneur providing information technology, soft skills application training, professional writing, event production, curation, marketing, and tech support for entrepreneurs and artists. Moreover, RescuePoetix is the first Puerto Rican woman poet laureate emeritus of Jersey City, New Jersey, and the state of New Jersey Beat Poet Laureate 2022 to 2024.

Rescue is also a bilingual, globally published performing poet, advocate, spoken word artist, recording artist, and teaching artist.

She established her professional artist brand, RescuePoetix, and is an arts advocate deeply involved in the arts community since 2006. Additionally, she currently serves on the boards of several arts organizations throughout the USA. Michelle, did I forget something big that our audience should know about? 

Michelle Bond
Uh, yeah. How about the 2024 playwright in residence for Patterson Performing Arts Development Council with her play, By the Light of the Ghetto Moon? 

Welcome, Rescue. Thank you for joining us. We're really excited to have you here. 

RescuePoetix
Thank you. It's an honor and a pleasure to be here with you both. 

Michelle Bond
I know that for quite a while Joan has been talking about this topic in particular of intergenerational trauma and how it impacts the decision making of business owners and female founders. But I'm really curious as to how, how you guys got connected, how we found you and how you said, "yes, yes, this is something I..." you know, obviously learning about you, you clearly know so much about it and have infused into your work, but would love to hear more about that. 

RescuePoetix
So Joan and I actually have a mutual friend also from Jersey, Ariel Guidry, who is, who was in Jersey city and one of my most favoritest people in the world. She made the connection.

RescuePoetix (04:13.054)
And talking about this topic about intergenerational trauma and just passing it down and passing it through, she thought it was a good idea for us to connect and to talk. And then the first time Joan and I talked, it was like instant connection, instant chemistry, right? So, and it was so easy to have that conversation to then be here where we are today.

Joan Kanner
Yeah, thank you for that. It truly was and I so appreciated... Here we go - mutual admiration society, part one... That you are also you had such a great presence when we first... you were like open, but you knew who you were. And I really appreciate that from anybody really, which means also an invitation for me to be myself and a meeting. 


But then also you were talking about our podcast. You care enough about your brand and who you are as a person and what you put forth to like also look into us. I mean, you know, Ariel can be friends with me, we can have different interests, but doesn't mean that we're going to align in terms of like our values and audience. And it really became very evident to me that you would be the early guest, that you'd have all your shit... the ducks in row when it came to like your bios and whatnot. And in listening to your feedback, it was meaningful to me because you were getting connections that other people have not shared with us yet about our content, about how food is like a conversation opener, about how its community. And you talked about a great example of like, if you and I are eating hummus together, or to me, I would say like, you know, [an] Ethiopian meal, we are in it. 

RescuePoetix
Yeah, that was a great conversation around food. Because, you know, like I said, food is the universal equalizer. You put a plate of food in front of people, there's no fighting, there's no anything, unless you're fighting for the last bit. Right? So but other than that, it's a community. Food instantly brings community.

And that to me is everything because I love to eat. I love to break bread with community. And I love to get to know people over food because it drops those barriers that otherwise we would have up because we're trying to protect who we are. So food just eliminates those things. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah, it's an essential... I mean, it's essential in all of the ways. Yeah, something about stripping everything else away that allows you to kind of open up in that way.

Joan Kanner (06:33.57)
I think I'm just going to take like a little bit of a sidebar and just talk about like your podcast. In "Everything is a Story" that you do with Dujuana, I really love the topic, the more macro topic of like breaking up with concepts and constructs. At least that's what I took away from it. So I'm hoping I'm not too like far off base. 

RescuePoetix
No, you're right on. It's breaking, breaking up and then finding the breakthrough in that breakup.

Joan Kanner
So whether it's about like your sexuality or your relationship with food or other types of topics, I find it to be so fascinating. At one point, like I had done a mobile app that was meant to help people break up from music that was meant to like - basically like not what they need to hear at the moment. And you have to put control into their hands. So I taking that, the concept of break up, not just in terms of like one-on-one relational stuff was like just super important. And it's fascinating. 

And I also learned different things about how you show up in the world in terms of being a creative, but also being a business person. I was, I will say like, was tickled when I heard that you were doing this, an event in Jersey city. And it was like a recurring event, I believe. And you talk about the realness of having an IP issue with the venue owners, wanting to basically take your idea and run with it in the absence of giving you credit or attribution. 

And I was just like, this artist is real. She is grounded. And like how important is to have you be part of different artists communities saying like, no art is a business, art is not charity. 

RescuePoetix
That's exactly right. People tend to forget that part of art. I mean, look around you, everything from the design of a hat to the color of their door to the clothes that we're wearing all begins with art. The design of it, the color of it, the feel of it, the inspiration of it. And that leads to what? To us as artists contributing to the economic growth of the country. And artists are treated like second or third or fourth class citizens as if they have no value, that we have no value, I should say. And that art is a throwaway thing.

RescuePoetix (08:57.92)
And I think one of the things that we've learned, especially in the last few years, that art is not only essential, it's critical to our survival as human beings.

Michelle Bond (09:15.842)
I guess, can you talk a little bit about your work with entrepreneurs and artists and how just even a light touch, I know, we'll go a little deeper, but how some of these things that we're talking about, you know, show up and how or how you've been very intentional about weaving them in to, you know, your work in your art. 

RescuePoetix
Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate that. So every time, or the first time that you receive
a check that taxes are not taken out of, you are an entrepreneur. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

RescuePoetix
Right. 

Michelle Bond
Amen. Amen. 

RescuePoetix
So if I go to perform somewhere and I get a check that is just the full amount of what my fee is without taxes taking out, I am an entrepreneur. That makes me a business. And that intention going in with that idea to every situation, small or large, is important to know who you are and to have your own sense of value is critical for an artist. A lot of artists have said to me, "I'll do that for free." And I'm the first to say, "no, you won't." 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

RescuePoetix
You're not doing anything for free. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

RescuePoetix
If there is a budget, if someone is charging at the door, they can afford to pay. If someone is not charging at the door... If someone is not charging at the door, they can afford to have a meal for you ready, or have you invite a couple of guests. Right? I'm not a drinker, so don't, don't try to seduce me with two beers. Give me a plate of food. I'm happy with that. Right? There are instances of course, where for me to walk out of my house, it's $150.

And the sole reason is I have to prepare before I leave. I have to make sure that everything is set in my house. I have to drive to the venue wherever the venue may be. If it's in New York, because I'm in Jersey, there are tolls to pay or fees to pay when you take the bus or the PATH or whatever it is. And then you have to get there. You do your performance or whatever you're going to do and you come back and it's the same cost coming back. And nothing in this world...

RescuePoetix (11:42.402)
...runs for free, regardless of what they try to sell you. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Joan Kanner
And I had this one quotable quote from you. There's many to be had already today, but you said "exposure is not compensation." And I feel like people need to let that sink in a bit. 

RescuePoetix
Absolutely right. Because I can do exposure all by myself. It's free, right? You can do it on social media. You don't need someone to tell you, "well, it's good exposure for you." No, it's not.
You know what's good exposure for me? You pay me. 

Michelle Bond
That's right. Right. Yeah. Right. 

RescuePoetix
Because I can list this on my resume, my professional resume. And then in addition to that, if you're saying to me, "well, it's good exposure for you and I need you to help bring in people." That's not my job. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

RescuePoetix
That's not my job. If you are in a position that you need others to bring people for you, then you're in the wrong business. Or you need to expand your following. That's not up to the artist to do.

Yes, I'll share the flyer. Yes, I'll share the information. Because I want my friends to know if this is a venue that you are interested in performing or an organization you're interested in performing with, yes, I'll share that. But don't expect me to invest in a marketing campaign for something that you're responsible for.

Michelle Bond
And so much of that, you make me think though, like at, I think the assumption in the arts and then I think also in entrepreneurship or small businesses, right? As soon as you start a business, all of a sudden people start asking you for things for free. [laughs] But the assumption, there's a status piece with that though, right? Like when you, I think there's the assumption that you have to get to a certain level and then all of a sudden you can be treated as the main event, the person that people are paying to see, the person who would never be asked to do anything extra, the talent. And that's really flawed, right? It's like some switch flips somewhere where all of a sudden you can stop being treated poorly and then start being worshiped. And I know it's not that simple, but as you're speaking, it makes me think...

Michelle Bond (13:59.648)
Art is the main event of what people are coming to experience. You wouldn't ask the person painting the walls or the person even catering the event to help bring people into it. 

RescuePoetix
Absolutely right. And you wouldn't expect them to prove themselves by doing an event for free. Right? 

Michelle Bond
Yeah.

RescuePoetix
You would never go into a bodega and order a sandwich and expect not to pay for it because they don't have a name brand. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah.

RescuePoetix
Whereas you would go into Subway, which, you know, for those who like those commercial sandwiches, have marketing, right? They have big budget marketing. Little mom and pop shops don't have that. So there's that difference. There's that imbalance there. And no matter what you consume in whatever way you choose to consume it, you still have to pay for it. And that's how the economy keeps going and growing and going and growing. It's the only way.

Michelle Bond
No, absolutely. 

Joan Kanner
It's important to get awareness or you're not contributing to your own oppression in terms of those cycles. If a bunch of people, artists said like, "no, we're not doing this mural for this cut rate anymore. We're exposed enough, we're fine." Then people have to say, "shit, I need to actually like cough up some bucks if I really want this thing." Well, yeah, there's a consequence of that. Sure. 

RescuePoetix
Absolutely. And then, you know, there are artists who will say, you know, "if you get paid, you're selling out." No, if I'm getting paid, I'm able to pay my rent.

Michelle Bond
Right, right. 

RescuePoetix
If I'm getting paid, I'm able to have the bigger opportunity to get a better car, to make sure my gas, my tank is filled with gas, to make sure that I have the things that I need to continue doing my art. When you invest in yourself, you're investing in your art and you're investing in your community because you can accomplish more. Think about that. I heard someone say one day...

RescuePoetix (16:01.762)
Think of all the things you can do with money. Think of all the more things you can do with more money. So money is not the evil here. It's the perception that because I'm an artist, that I have to do what everyone else says, how everyone else chooses to do it. We're all individuals. It's a choice at the end of the day, right? I choose that I'm going to hold my own value, nd my art will not suffer for the holding that bound. My art can only get better. 

Michelle Bond
That's right. Yeah, this idea of well, and as it relates to this topic of, you know, our family histories and things like that, I mean, it's it's this idea certainly in, you know, a very Catholic upbringing, you know, this idea this virtue in suffering, right? Like this idea that, yeah, if I... there's some, like there's some extra reward attached to extra suffering somewhere, even if you're not consciously thinking about it. And I realized like on this topic, as Joan and I were prepping, like we, you know, just thinking about the way this has shown up in... sometimes it matters. 

Sometimes obviously like, you know, pushing through a struggle to get to something that forms you in certain ways. But for the sake of itself, for the sake of making things, I hadn't realized how sometimes there's no extra, the reward is not that much sweeter if it was that much harder. Right? 

RescuePoetix
Right. Exactly right. Just because your... suffering is a human construct...

RescuePoetix (17:59.982)
Suffering is designed to keep us in control. Suffering is designed to keep us in line. Suffering is designed, especially in the cases of women, BIPOC people, marginalized folk. It's designed as a way to have us, yet again, prove ourselves. Prove ourselves worthy of the benefit. Prove ourselves worthy of the reward. When all along, all we have to do is accept ourselves for who we are, regardless of the generational trauma that keeps getting passed down and passed down and passed through and initiated in our lives at a very young age. That doesn't change the reward. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

RescuePoetix
Right. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah, it's, it's about... 

Joan Kanner
You have to recognize it, though. 

Michelle Bond
Recognizing it and then saying "it stops with me." Right? 

RescuePoetix
Right. Or it stops somewhere. It has to stop at some point because it's just a cycle of suffering and under-representation and undervaluing and not accepting who we are for the magic that we bring into this world. And we're here and we're each different because if we were the same life would be boring, right? There would be no need for all of us if we were all the same. And we all bring something different each time we show up. How we choose to show up is something else.

Michelle Bond (19:36.184)
Joan, I'm curious as to, you know, because you had a very clear ask, you know, when you and Rescue got put in touch. 

Joan Kanner
Correct.

Michelle Bond
And so I'm curious as to the driving realization, experience, reason that on, you know, I mean, as we talk about underrepresented founders, and as we talk about systems and gatekeepers and kingmakers that are all kind of designed to not pave the pathway for different kinds of founders. It makes sense, but I want to know, you know, where you're coming from with this and how we can have a conversation about that.

Joan Kanner
Sure. And like where I'm not coming from is that in however long this pod episode ends up being is that we resolve all this. You know. I

You know, you're like, "what, this is not just like a 1980s TV show?" 

Michelle Bond
A very special episode...

Joan Kanner
... of Different Strokes where Arnold gets tanked, you know, and then like some guy tries to feel them up. And videotape it, I believe too. That was a rough episode. But for me, I started to have this awareness for a few different reasons about like how my own trauma was showing up. I thought I had it like more, you know, somehow compartmentalized. It's just like "maybe this is just in my personal life."

But it clearly became to me, as an entrepreneur and a business owner, that things were peeking out and I wanted to understand their source. So can either start like, know, either continue them if they really weren't a problem, but [it's] just good to know what the origin was to stop them, to modify them, to like really understand better so I can make better decisions going forward, knowing that I'm not a robot, but just knowing that like sources are very important. 

And so Rescue like not too long ago, we were awarded some interesting stuff from the good people at Lenovo and what they added to this award package of some things you would expect, right? Like some money, some electronics, important stuff. Then they just said, you know, "we feel like people need therapists slash coaches, like little boosts." So I had some sessions with somebody. and I was bringing up a work-related issue. And knowing a little bit about like my personal history...

Joan Kanner (21:59.064)
...having like spoken with her [the coach], she just said, like "you were not being this way with your team members because like you saw them as like "child you", like you were letting them get away with shit, you even though they're adults because you were feeling like you were... they represented like the person in you who has been silenced, who has like been ignored. And you were giving them a pass because you saw your power distance as being like a parent-child [relationship]. 

And I had like a "wow moment" because I was reflecting with her. I'm like, "if another chef or someone gets in my way, I'm just like, 'move your shit.'" Or just like, "I don't need to hear that from you. No, I don't need you to show me how to zest. I know how to zest." Like I'm so assertive in many other ways. When this one group of people that we had, with BUB, I remember just thinking like, "why am I being so lenient with them? They're acting out. They need to be fired. This is not helping the greater good of like ourselves or customers and progression." And so we focused in on that, like in a session or two, and that was really meaningful for me.

And I thought like, "my God, like what other things could I be doing or not doing that still like stem back from having a really traumatic like childhood and adolescence?" 

RescuePoetix
Yeah, that's a tough thing. We carry those things around with us like little folded notes, right? We have them tucked away in little spaces in our brain or wherever those things remind us, little scars on our body, little scars on our hearts. We carry those around and we say, "okay, I got hurt this way. I want to make sure you're not hurt this way" without taking into consideration that the situation, although they seem parallel are very different. 

As an entrepreneur, as a boss, you have a, a right, a responsibility to be the best boss you can. And that includes moving people out of the way or situations out of the way that are toxic to the growth and evolution of you as a boss, your employees and your business. Because it's not doing you any service. It's not doing you any justice to continue allowing things to happen that don't improve. An apology isn't an apology if people keep doing the same thing over and over.

Michelle Bond (24:34.988)
Maybe let's talk about your play, and the connections to some of these topics. And then I'm just curious as to how you clearly like mentor and work with folks not only to make sure that they have a way to live on the work that they do, but also with exploring some of these things about themselves in their past that maybe are holding them back or maybe they're just not aware about that can be a source of strength. 

RescuePoetix
Yeah, that's a really great topic. That's a podcast all by itself, right?

Joan Kanner
Okay. Fine. We'll do it. 

Michelle Bond
Do it. Yeah. 

RescuePoetix
So "By the Light of the Ghetto Moon" started out as a poem that I'd written many years ago and had squirreled away and hidden away because it was a very vulnerable piece. it was very "bring the walls down and let's talk about things that people don't talk about" because in the Latinx, Hispanic, Puerto Rican culture, you don't talk about trauma. You don't talk about the bad things that happen to you. You don't talk about the impact of society on what's going on in your life. You don't talk about those things. You swallow it, you get up, and you keep moving. 


"By the Light of the Ghetto Moon" was an expose on that, right? It's an opening of realizing that at the age of 18, we make our own decisions. It's entirely up to us when we reach adulthood, when we reach adulthood to make those decisions and stop blaming the people around us. Not that they don't hold responsibility for how we view the world, but to hold them responsible for our decisions is not fair to ourselves and it's not fair to them. So at the age of 18, I didn't know any Spanish. I taught myself. I didn't know any history of my culture. I taught myself. 

With that realization and the realization of having children of my own, I realized that the way I grew up was generational. It was the way they grew up, the way their parents grew up, the way their parents grew up. And it was the only thing that this unit, this family unit knew how to do. So I being the out of the box...

RescuePoetix (26:59.362)
...the crayon instead of the marker. I never understood any of that and never accepted it to be that, to be life. And I went on the entrepreneur journey, building at a very early age, always looking for different ways to do things, always looking for easier, faster, new ways to do things, learning the hard way because that's just who I am, right? Gotta learn the hard way before you do it the easy way. 

Michelle Bond
God, of course, yeah.

RescuePoetix
So, and understanding that even though I was told that my voice didn't have value because I was a girl, understanding that in my world, my voice was the only one that mattered. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

RescuePoetix
And that's a lot for someone to do, to accept, to understand, to explore. So, and I'm still exploring that. I find myself now, after originally putting out the poem, having it go down from an eight-minute written poem to a stage production through some acting and some stage and some workshopping to being performed on stage as a poem, to then being turned into a play for the Downtown Urban Arts Festival in New York and then have it picked up by another organization, Patterson Performing Arts Development Council, to then for them to say to me, "look, the sky's the limit. Let's develop this play the way you want to develop it. What is your goal for this?" 

And those are things that as you're growing up, you don't hear that, or at least I didn't hear that, right? I didn't hear "the sky's the limit, you can do whatever you want." I heard "you can't do that because you're a girl." 

Michelle Bond
Right? 

RescuePoetix
"You can't do that because you don't come from a well-to-do family." "You can't do that because you're from Patterson." And now all those things, I can take all those things with me and do anything I want. And in that, being awarded the ability to expand "By the Light of the Ghetto Moon" allowed for me to open up the door for other people. And that meant hiring a director, that meant hiring actors, that meant making sure they were taken care of because the financing or the budget from the festival was very limited. Because it's a festival, right? Very limited. And then digging into my own pocket and saying, "I'm going to pay you this...

RescuePoetix (29:27.83)
...in addition to what you're being paid." That's my responsibility as an entrepreneur and community leader in the arts, right? Knowing what would I want to see for myself? Knowing that if you're coming from wherever you're coming from after a long day of work and not being fed is not right by me. So taking care of those little things, taking care of a travel stipend, little things that maybe in the bigger picture no one really thinks about.

But in the day to day grind, every one of those steps is important. And if I have a hundred dollars and I'm going to hire you to do something, if I'm able, you'll get the whole hundred dollars. If I am not able, I will negotiate with you. "What can you do for this amount?" Or "what can you do for this amount knowing that something else is coming down the pipe?" So it's all that again. And then it also builds trust.

If you build trust with artists, you build trust with your community and there comes a time when you don't have a budget, that person will understand and say, "okay, you know what? You've taken care of me all this time. I got you. Knowing that the next paid opportunity that you'll include me in." And that's all that community is about. 

And the trauma of carrying our limitations with us or our perceived limitations, our perceived expectation of being in a box because you're this and you're that and this is where you fit, no longer applies when you're building that kind of community.

Joan Kanner (31:07.224)
I mean, damn, there's so many things like I could... I so appreciate you tying in - this may not make the cut - but I just really just appreciate you tying in like how you can kind of work to undo some of those intercultural - I'm sorry - intergenerational like wrongs that have come, acknowledge them as you say, like letting go of the anger and whatever else you may be holding to the people who can like just kept holding up that mantle of that nonsense and just saying like, "I'm gonna do it differently. People may get it, people may not. I need to do this for myself." And then you were basically giving yourself the key to unlocking. Like making this like your moksha life. But this is it. I'm figuring shit out. I'm not continuing in it. And then I'm out. 

RescuePoetix
That's right. You can either keep the door closed, lock yourself in your room and blame the world for the way you feel and what you're doing, what you haven't been able to accomplish because you're being weighed down by that. Or you can open the door, step into the most terrifying situation of your life, because it's something you've never done. then plan for the worst and hope for the best, right? That's the expression. And just keep it moving forward.

[ad begins]

Joan Kanner (32:36.992)
And now it's time for our monthly visit to the House of Woo. This week's episode is brought to you by: the power of finally having an adult apologize to you. 

I'm sorry I did that. I'm really sorry that happened to you. That was hurtful and unnecessary, and I'm sorry.

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Joan Kanner (33:16.61)
Some listeners know and some don't, but I was raised by my paternal grandparents and they were Holocaust survivors. So one Mississippi, two Mississippi... think about like how they didn't want to talk about certain aspects to their life. And there are other things about their personalities that were impactful in terms of my upbringing. So between not talking about what was really going on, and I'm someone who just wants to like really just examine, and see, and just acknowledge what's going on. I mean, if you think differently about it, you can just like talk about what's really happening.

But they also left me - through their trauma - passing that along and making me super hyper vigilant. So for a time, Michelle and I were working with our business out of a shared kitchen. And it was not, in my opinion, it was not managed at a level that it should have been. Because you're dealing with food: there's safety, there's theft, there's other things going on, there's people just being in your shit. And it really rocked my nervous system. 

And it wasn't till like leaving there, I thought "What the fuck did you think was going to happen, Joan? There's a constant bombardment of people. Your stuff is not safe." But at the same time, I'm sure they had this conversation before, but there are aspects to some of those trauma reactions or what comes out of that that are good. I can generally sniff out a person who's a piece of shit or someone who's wants to basically get one over on you pretty quickly. it's only, think eventually, Michelle, you got to the point where it's kind of like, "yeah, we won't talk to them anymore."

You know, like you're, trusting my instincts. So there's like the really shitty part, which is just like, you know, are the doors checked? Like just really being like hyper-vigilant at all times, head on a swivel. But there are some things that come out of it that help people survive in those instances. Granted, you shouldn't apply that to every non-crisis part of your life, right? But there are some parts to it too, which I'm really grateful for. that like, I, I'm probably not going to get like, you know, and if I walk into a city, I feel very comfortable. Cause I know like what my surroundings are and like know where the people are around. And I think it's basically good, but not to have it like at a 10. It needs to be at a two. You know, the hyper part of it is what makes it difficult to deal with. 

RescuePoetix
Yeah, being hyper vigilant, though, is kind of ingrained in us, right? When you're past that, the type of trauma of long-term suffering, long-term disaster, long-term chaos...

RescuePoetix (35:42.912)
...it creates that, those barriers and those walls in you that you're constantly checking left, checking right, checking up, checking down, double checking, triple checking, and not really being secure.

To define what secure means is a personal thing, right? Just because I feel safe somewhere doesn't mean you're gonna feel safe in that place. And the best we can do together is to find that common ground. Where are we comfortable? At what point then do you step in with your vigilance? At what point do I step in with my vigilance? What can we learn from each other about the situation?

Is it, is my fear real or is it based on someone else's experience or is it something that I've created a scenario in my head that because of all the horror stories that I hear around me, I think it's going to happen now? And defining those things can be very difficult because we're, if we don't take a moment to breathe, whether we're angry, upset, fearful or anything and just react, then that creates a different type of vigilance. 

Joan Kanner
That was just like the recipe for also, for collusion. I feel like, you know, like the boundary keeping as something I have slipped on that just, you know, if I see a ghost everywhere at some point that people around me will be like, is there really a ghost? mean, like there has to be that separation. I think it's like also part of people's health and wellness is like realizing that like where your emotions end, someone else's can start differently and that you're not really, you know, sharing feelings. Like there's not like a "we" when it comes to that. And it's going - to your point about like security. There's not like a "we." We can agree eventually, but you don't come to the table with that agreed upon we, or just assimilate to like whatever my feelings are. That's not healthy.

Michelle Bond (37:44.024)
Are there any specific examples or experiences that you have had that you would like to share or that you feel like would add to the conversation, Rescue, around like decision making once some of these realizations have been made? 

RescuePoetix
That's a really great point. I have to say that before I was, I immersed myself in spoken word and poetry, I recorded a lot of my poetry to music. And the expectation is that a record producer will not pay you, will not pay for your studio time, will not pay for your advance or whatever they want to call it these days, and expect you to take on the responsibility of earning residuals after they've been paid, after a label's been paid, after all the fees are done, which in most cases is nothing. So one of my entrepreneurial evolutions was being an artist manager. 

And one of the things that I had to teach the artists is that you should get money upfront because you have to pay for your studio. Your time is as valuable as the producer. You put in as much work, if not more work, than the producer to create something that is specific to what they're producing. I mean, any issues, they're an entrepreneur. Any concerns if you're not 50-50 in publications, if you're not in publishing, if you're not 50-50 in publishing, if you don't get an advance, if you don't get royalties, then you're literally selling yourself out.

Michelle Bond
Hmm 

RescuePoetix
And there were times where a producer... and I have a term sheet and I encourage all artists to have a term sheet These are my terms. This is how long I need to do this. This is what my expectation is. This is my credits and this is what happens in the future. And I've sent that out to let's say a dozen producers and never heard a word back.

RescuePoetix (40:08.598)
And it just goes to show, right, it just goes to show that they have an expectation that because I'm a poet, I don't work as hard as a singer and that I don't have the same value as a producer or as a singer. And if that's the case, you have that belief that I'm not the person for you. 

Michelle Bond
Right. Right.

RescuePoetix
And that, and I don't lose anything. I can't miss it if I never had it. So instead of sacrificing my time to write a poem, for a song, finding the right cadence, the right melody, the right lyrics, and then going into the studio, paying the studio, because even though the studio owner is my friend, he still needs to get paid. It's his business, right? So paying the studio, putting the energy to do that, providing them with a perfect track with ad libs and whatever else, and then to be treated as an afterthought. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

RescuePoetix
But then I'll just sleep in my bed with my dog. I get more out of that. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Joan Kanner
I feel like the term sheet is like the bouncer at the door of a club. And that bouncer, I'm telling you, like I need to have an episode about IP because like you're like, I have no idea what, what number guest Who brought up these issues. The bouncer at the door or when someone gets out of line, like, and would just hit you in the chest, just like a way of just saying:

"Back off, she said no. Right. If you want to stay here, you need to like know how to treat people. And if not, there's plenty other people waiting in line, look behind you." So definitely the bouncer is like, the term sheet is like the bouncer at the door. And also I think there's something that you mentioned, or I thought like, there's some people who would also say, not just "I need the exposure," but they'd say, "but like, he's my friend" or like, "but he's so cool" or just like, "it's a friend's friend" or like "it's family." I feel like people get so distracted by that. And what's, I mean, already like a messy fucking subject and they give latitude to people who are not even like really truly fucking asking for it. And if things like flop or go sideways, other things can be messed up by that. But to your earlier points, Rescue, if you care about your own boundaries and you have your own set terms, if people don't want to work with your shit, there's like, going to be like no regret walking away from those situations. There will be no regret in your life. 

RescuePoetix
That's right. Because no is the complete sentence.

Joan Kanner (42:32.078)
That's so Jersey. You just Jersey'ed us. You just Jersey'ed all over me. 

Michelle Bond
I think I heard other family members say that. But you make, but also your point about you can't lose something that you didn't have. And I feel like so many times, especially as entrepreneurs, right? We we're dreamers and we're passionate and I think we put so much stake in potential and opportunity and in a way you have to but I think this is a very concrete example of in this case, a very clear way of how it can hurt you to put value in something you do not yet have at the expense of your future value, right? If you get in a habit of doing that, how many gigs, how many showings, how many productions do you have a chance to have that you're going to be lowballed or undermined at every step of the way? Because of what 1) I can't, I can't turn this person off because what if you know, this lead this is my huge break and I just gave him a term sheet and they think I'm crazy. 

Joan Kanner
I mean, they just give it out. I mentioned like Michelle, you did like an equation just now.
That's almost like an equation you gave us. That's like, you should need to like get a chalkboard and do like a Goodwill Hunting version of what you just fucking said about current value and future value. Now back to Rescue. And we're back... 

RescuePoetix
Think about that. If, if someone is approaching you about doing something that they have their terms set as well, right? So they're going to infiltrate your life, up end your terms to satisfy their own need.

RescuePoetix (44:24.024)
So who has the value there? Who has the power there? Who is trying to have the power there? If you're coming to me with an idea and I have a bunch of folders on my computer with potentials, with ideas, because dreaming is for free, right? Dreaming is free and you can create all the ideas. And at some point you present an idea and it's not accepted, then it's not the time for that idea.

You sock it away and you'll find your people for that idea. Because there is someone out there who is of the same mindset that you are, that has the same sense of value for your work, for your time, for your energy that you do. And that's the person you want to build. And I'm okay with saying no.

Michelle Bond (45:25.838)
So I always like to ask our guests if there's anything that they're proofing on when it comes to their work, future projects, or just a mentality, a practice, anything you'd like to share with us. 

RescuePoetix
I love the idea of proofing and all the food analogies you put in there. What I've been marinating on is my own poetry book, right? 

Joan Kanner
Mmm...

Michelle Bond
Mmm...

RescuePoetix
I've recorded a lot of poetry to music and I don't have a book. I do, however, have poems in a variety of anthologies, in a variety of different spaces. And the idea is part, that's part of the proofing, is to get myself out there as a published poet, as a printed poet. So that when my book is ready, the proof has already been done. So that when I release it, people will say, "well, who is this person putting out a poetry book?" So that part of it is done.

Another thing, I'm a very big believer in letting things sit until they're ready. You will know they're ready when people come to you with it, instead of you coming to them with it. And in the meantime, building the community around it and taking your time and getting to know other people. That's part of the proofing for me, building those relationships.

And in building those relationships, something may not happen now, something may happen in a year. I may hire a friend to do a website. I may hire another friend to do a poetry event for me or a workshop. They may hire me to do something for them. And that's where the proofing stage is in building the relationships. 

Michelle Bond
I think you just blew Joan's mind with things coming. I mean, I think because as, at least our entrepreneurial experiences have often felt so much like we are constantly just pushing and pushing and driving and following up and reaching out and putting ourselves out there and to have and that's kind of why this metaphor, right? It's like just get, just let it unfold. Just, you know, I mean, not to say you have to be diligent and that's part of the struggle, right? You're not, no one's going to eat if you're not, if you're waiting for something to fall in your lap.

RescuePoetix (47:50.136)
But have to be consistent. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

RescuePoetix
Consistence, persistence and determination. I don't stop just because I'm not creating something; an event. Doesn't mean I'm not planning for it or preparing for it or doing something for that event to happen. I could be out scouting poets. I could be out scouting a venue. I can be out checking out the marketing of a specific event or checking out different things. Those are all part of the building.

And when it's ready to come to fruition, then it's going to happen. Then you have... 

Joan Kanner
Man, I've, I've muscled so many - unnecessarily - relationships in my life: "No, you gotta like me." No, but this was like they're muscling through things, but also like even in like in terms of having products like, no, you got to like it. You got to do these things and also filling in the gap where I feel like it's all too common with entrepreneurs, especially when they are from minoritized groups that you have to do so much to make stuff happen. You have to like, you can't just be the spark. You have to like get the firewood and make sure it's dry and like all those things. And I'm we can figure out a bazillion more metaphors, especially you, Rescue. mean, you're a poet for a living, essentially. It's what you do! And, you know, I just feel like it's so encouraged to be able, like we are so encouraged to make should happen and keep pushing up that boulder. But you're just saying, you're just like, let the rock fucking roll. Step aside, look around the hill and go, "maybe that's our next opportunity." And I feel like it's really hard and certain, whether it's like tech or other places, things are so fast moving and people talk about, you know, moving fast and breaking things and there's something to be said for, for slow growth and for waiting for stuff to happen because you're going to have like another idea. 

RescuePoetix
Right. 

Joan Kanner
There's going to be another thing to spark you.

RescuePoetix
Right. And there will be another opportunity. There will always be another opportunity. And if you're focused on the one that you're trying to force to fit into what you think you need, you're going to miss out on all the other ones. So yeah, let's go ahead. Let's persist. Let's keep on with this one opportunity. Cause I know some things are going to come up. Maybe now is not the time, but something will happen. So I'm not going to lose sight of that, but I'm not going to put all my focus on it either. 

Michelle Bond
We'll make sure people know where to find you and where to find your work and how to learn more. And...

Michelle Bond (50:13.08)
...support all of the exciting things that you're doing. Thank you so much. And this has been such a pleasure for me to be able to talk about these very challenging topics, because these are not things we talk about on a regular basis and we can't talk about them with everyone because people are just not ready. So I want to thank you for showing up ready and prepared and open and with more questions. 

Michelle Bond
Always more questions.

RescuePoetix
That's what makes for a good conversation.

Joan Kanner
I just think it just got like a Richard Simmons spiritual manqué over here. It was just like a Richard Simmons like spiritual experience. It's like just getting trained through something. Some sort of like emotions doula just walked by. 

Michelle Bond
All right. Well, this has been Proofing Stage with RescuePoetix. I'm your host, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
I'm still Joan Kanner. Though, I feel like I'm floating above my body right now. This is really meta.

Michelle Bond
That's a sign that it's been good. 

RescuePoetix
And this is RescuePoetix saying gracias and buenas noches.

Michelle Bond (51:30.126)
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme song, "Bagels for the Kraken," was written and performed by Thorn Haze. Additional music from Pixabay. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes, disclaimers, and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage dot com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail dot com.

You can also find us on Instagram, threads and TikTok at proofing stage. Visit our Patreon page to support the show and get even more great content. I'm your host Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And I am also your host Joan Kanner. Thanks for listening. 

Joan Kanner
Although I will need to say that this is the hashtag Crew Jersey episode. This is the most Jersey that any episode has been for folks. You can't see the video right now, but we will put that up there. 
I mean we are doing some roof raisin', maybe even some barn raisin'. Bring in the Amish. We got this.

Michelle Bond
Crew Jersey episode. 

Joan Kanner
Cause I'm from Irvington. 

RescuePoetix
And I'm from Jersey city, originally from Patterson. 

Michelle Bond
And I'm from Belleville, New Jersey. 

Joan Kanner
I mean, when we join forces... 

Michelle Bond
We're all in Taylor Ham country is what I'm hearing. 

RescuePoetix
That's right. At least you said it right. Taylor Ham. Every day!

Michelle Bond
I had a call yesterday with somebody who was like, "are you, do you call it Taylor's ham or pork roll?" And I felt like being like, "well, nobody calls it Taylor's ham from Northern Jersey. I'll tell you that." But we are from Taylor ham country, but in Baltimore, we're outnumbered by the Central and South Jersey people. So pork roll. 

Joan Kanner
That's some medigan bullshit. That person probably puts ketchup on things that don't need ketchup. Right that. 

RescuePoetix
You need a passport to go through South Jersey, so...

Joan Kanner
[laughs]

Michelle Bond
[laughs]

RescuePoetix
Don't tell my friends I said that.

Michelle Bond
I love it. 

Joan Kanner
Well, we only had a couple of listeners from South Jersey anyway. You know what I mean? Like they'll roll with it. 

Michelle Bond
They're gone.