Breaking the Bank: Grants' Biggest Secrets Revealed

Get That Cash! Business Grant Guidance
Straight Cash Opportunities for Your Business, Homie.

Finally, the pro-tip episode we've been promising for ages! Well, about two seasons anyway. From grant-writing to review, Michelle and Joan join forces for a content rich, use right now conversation on grants. 

The two focus on finding, applying and reporting on those funding sources that are the best fit for your needs, while creating a process that keeps your admin time light but can still drop the cash needed to start, grow or scale your business.

From getting to know administrators to weaving the story that keeps you front and center for future opportunities, this discussion takes years of writing and reviewing grant applications and distills the basics (and then some). For those looking to take advantage of these sometimes-slippery-but-almost-always worth-it resources to support your next project, hire or revenue stream - you're gonna wanna hit "save" on this one. 

Like:

• Grants vs. hanging with Bea Arthur in a money machine
• Grant-writing experience matters, and you can build it
• Getting clear on your needs and use of funds
• 90-day action plans and a boilerplate are everything
• Essential grant components and how to excel at them
• Tracking and reporting progress even when it's not "required"

Grant Speak 101
See full definitions on the Proofing Stage website

• Budget
• Cost sharing
• Effort
• Non-dilutive funding
• Post-award management
• Pre-award costs
• Prime sponsor
• Progress reports
• Program Manager
• Project period
• Request for Applications (RFA)

Links
Chama Capital
Check out their grants database for upcoming opportunities. They're a great source for seeing what's available. Bonus! Their list is organized and you can sort based on eligibility requirements. 

Credits
Theme Music by Thorn Haze

Additional Music by: wildman48 (via Pixabay)

Podcast Cover Art by Lisa Orye 

Produced by Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

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Transcript

[podcast intro begins]

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure.

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kanner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner.

Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories. 

Michelle Bond
Together, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between "Atta girl!" and "I told you so."

[podcast intro ends]

Joan Kanner (00:00)
Why, hello, Proofing Stage fans. Joan Kanner here, along with...

Michelle Bond (00:04)
Michelle Bond.

Joan Kanner (00:05)
Today on Proofing Stage, Michelle and I discuss everything you wanted to learn about grants, but we're afraid to ask or didn't think you had to ask. But also I'm saying a word that people love, grants.

Michelle Bond (00:18)
Let's talk about grants, baby. Yes, it's been a long time coming. We promised this like two seasons ago. So happy to get to it. And you're just stuck with the two of us today because we got a lot to say.

Joan Kanner (00:21)
Yep.

Not to say we wouldn't do a follow-up episode, but I think we can go little deeper with this crowd. They're very cerebral.

Michelle Bond (00:41)
totes.

Joan Kanner (00:43)
but also very attractive and athletic and all the things.

Michelle Bond (00:46)
and very kind and good people.

Joan Kanner (00:49)
as someone who's worked in grants and contracts management for many a year, and then also had to deal with them on the business end, I could tell you that there's the myth.

behind grants and what they mean for your business. And then there's the reality of it. As a start, Michelle, I've used this metaphor with you before, it's like grants are not this thing where you're going to walk into a game show money machine. In other words, it's like a phone booth and you walk in and then the money's like all spinning around you and whatever you can grab you have no questions asked and then you go off camera and that's it.

It's not even how game shows work in terms of your winnings. But doesn't mean to say they aren't extremely valuable for your business because they are non-dilutive funding, which we will also talk about along with a bunch of other definitions that, I personally will make sure they'll be included in the show notes.

Michelle Bond (01:37)
Yeah. And I think on the flip side of that, go into the game show money machine and grab as much money as you can and bolt. I think the flip side of that is that there's a lot of mystique sometimes around grants and grant writing, especially like, you know, it's this, magic bullet. If you have somebody who can write grants, you know, the world is your oyster. And it's certainly true that it is a good skill to hone. And I think it can be learned with some.

specific things to keep in mind, which are some of the things we're going to touch on today. But it's not something where you need to necessarily outsource it or hire somebody on your team to do it. I mean, it's great if you can do those things, but really it's about keeping in mind a few key tenants and like anything, also thinking about the recipient who's going to be reading it, what they're looking for, and just making sure you hit those marks so that you have the best chance of being funded.

Joan Kanner (02:30)
No, for sure. And I think that I want to go back to Michelle to the, just said non dilutive. So there's so many different ways of getting funded that we will not discuss today. There are certainly loans, which people are more than happy to give you. There's crowdfunding, which can be kind of exciting because there's definitely a marketing and like PR component and getting people on board. And there's different types of crowdfunding that kind of had this bent towards.

having a part of your business, which is getting some, some equity in it. So when I say non dilutive, mean, it's not going to take away from the equity that you have you and your co-owners have in the business. it's a financial mechanism that acts in the absence of of impacting that.

Michelle Bond (03:10)
Hmm.

So we're talking about money that stays in your pocket. It's additive to whatever other streams of revenue the business has going on.

Joan Kanner (03:23)
Mm hmm. It is. And it's important to know, like when it comes to something that impacts the ownership shares that you have in a business, that's a whole other actually, one, two, three episodes where we can talk about, angel investment, venture capitalism and just even certain types of crowdfunding that kind of like smack to having like an aspect of getting a part of your business.

And there could be positives to that. Like you could have people who are more additive, not just financially, but in terms of their expertise when it comes to your business. And grants are meant to do that. And they are great. I will say that when it comes to what Michelle was saying earlier about having people who are, man, I'm a grant writer. If you have the money to make that happen, great. But like what's been their track record? Do they know something specific to your field? And I think that

Grant writing is one of the few things I would continue to, I won't say, maybe the word bootstrap is like not accurate here, but it's one of those things as a business owner, you should probably at least to start be doing on your own. It's reasonable to be able to pull in from different team members some additional information to support what you're doing, but it does help to get your hands in it. We're going to talk a little bit about boilerplate, which is just the term for standard language about your business and standard

answers to questions that really make it easier to apply in the future. You can just update that language. And just also having ownership over what happens. So it'd be really, really rare to get a grant that says just take this money and go with it and there's no reporting. reporting to the people who provide the money to you. And I think when it comes down to it, Michelle, I the big elephant in the room is that grants seem amazing. It's like, it's free money, but they're...

And it does get impacted in your taxes to be exactly right, like revenue. But I want to have, know, Michelle, you were talking about an exception to that that happened

Michelle Bond (05:05)
Yeah, I was gonna say that.

Yeah, so I think you're right in that most times there are some strings attached and often those strings are just making sure that you can account for those funds, show expenditures, report on the things that you said you would do with that money. I think the level of detail of that reporting really varies depending on who is awarding the grant, but we're gonna touch on some of those things too. And I think there was a time

predominantly during COVID and folks who listened to season one heard us talk about this a little bit, where all of these entities, even government at different levels, whether it was state or local, certainly flowing down from fed money, they just wanted to get money in the hands of businesses, which was great. there were some eligibility requirements for sure, but there was very little reporting.

And the applications were fairly straightforward because they just wanted to support businesses at a time when they really needed to make it to the next month. And so there's some different schools of thought on that. But just to know that I think this idea of even grants for businesses, right? We talked a little bit about that, too, in Season 1 where it's like, I thought the way that you got money as a business was a loan. And that has been the traditional sense, but there is now more and more.

of an opportunity to get funding that you don't have to pay back, which is amazing, especially at the small business level. And so I guess it's just to be mindful that a lot of that money, if you were able to take advantage of it during COVID, just be mindful that there are more restrictions in place now. And there is also just a little bit higher barrier to entry in terms of what's required on some of those applications and what's required for the reporting.

What we thought we would do today is just kind of go down, not quite a 101, a little bit deeper, but not go down too many rabbit holes about what grants are, how they work different from loans, some of the components that make a compelling application, some of the things that people awarding grants are looking for, and some of the reporting that's required. and of course, how you find them, how you find

Joan Kanner (07:07)
you

Michelle Bond (07:14)
sources for those funds. And this is a fun opportunity for us Joan, because we kind of prior to BUB, sit on different sides of this. And as folks know, you have a history in grants and compliance work, making sure that, you know, people applying for things are kind of hitting all the marks they need to hit to, to be able to get those awards, mainly in academic settings. And I

with some of the community-based work that I've done have been on the grant writing side and kind of the storytelling side and weaving all of the pieces together to make sure that you can have a compelling application. So this is going to be a little bit of a tag team for folks and hopefully a robust conversation. And we'll make sure to have some key takeaways at the end so that you at least have kind of a jumpstart to your grant writing and grant securing journey.

Joan Kanner (08:03)
Because one, no matter what season we've had of this podcast, a goal, has been to make sure whoever's listening has better questions for their life, for their business world. I think answers are super important, and I'm happy to give direct answers about many a thing, especially when it comes to grants. I'm happy to go there with everybody. But I think just having more educated questions, makes you a better consumer of others' information, it makes you better as a leader.

helps you get further when it comes to working with folks you might outsource work to get you further along.

Michelle Bond (08:34)
Let's just get into it, Joan. Especially from the standpoint of a small business, what's the first thing to be thinking about when it comes to grants

Joan Kanner (08:43)
And I think for the purposes of this episode, we're going to focus more on one of the two worlds of grants. just on a very macro level, there is pre-award. So everything from finding a funding announcement, seeing whether not makes sense for you to apply for it, having a bunch of questions about the application, submitting in a timely fashion. If there's other questions, once you've submitted to like figure that out with the sponsor, right there, I'm using different words about the lifecycle of the grant. And this goes beyond, this is just general.

unrelated to just my university work, this also applies to small business. And there's post award, which is, once you get the money, what's the work that really happens, not just on your project end, but when it comes to reporting that Michelle talked about. And unlike with university settings, and I will talk about this a couple times throughout this episode, that there is also a tax implication, because grants are treated as revenue.

So in post awards, really like reporting about the progress of what you're doing, different sponsors, the sponsors are where like you apply to and they give the money. There may be a prime sponsor.

getting too far in the conversation, but there may be, let's say the feds give money to a nonprofit or a quasi-governmental agency, and then that gets to you. So that would make that agency, it could be a state, could be city, it could be a nonprofit that makes them the sponsor. So they kind of like trickle down those prime award things to get to you. They'll have some reporting requirements and reporting is also extremely important when it comes to progress. So we'll just talk about that briefly.

Per Michelle's point, let's start with the pre-award phase, in which case we're talking about finding grants that make sense for you. I think it could be, even though we all have limited time, especially entrepreneurs and small business owners, so many different things are going on. You do want to prioritize these opportunities for funding, especially given the priorities that you have. So I want to talk about two things. One is where these things lie, how do you know about grants? And I would also say,

What does that look like in terms of how you fit that into your schedule? And then I would also think about what are you trying to do? Just, actually, because it occurred to me to start with that. Like, what are you trying to do with these funds? Because it's reasonable to think that this is free money and I'll figure out what to do with it. But generally when it comes to applying to something, you should have a need or needs in mind.

Michelle Bond (10:45)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (11:02)
and you should have in mind who is doing the work. On the university end, you would always have to talk about the team behind something because it also tells you the competency of the people working to make something happen. So it's the team and then also the work to be done. So those are specific aims. We'll just talk about project work here or different things you would be addressing. And that should make sense, right? Like you should know like what the money is going towards and

depending on who the funder is, who the sponsor is, there's gonna be some sort of thing that they're looking to support, or the monies will be limited, meaning it just can't be for anything generally. If Mackenzie Scott wants to give you $25 million or a million dollars to do whatever you want with, that's rare and beautiful, and then go with that. You'll figure out what to do with the money, right? You'll make that work for you.

Michelle Bond (11:45)
Go for it.

Joan Kanner (11:51)
But generally there's going to be a focus, which is perfectly reasonable. So, federal money flows down and it's coming through, let's say like one of these regional USDA food related programs. They may limit what that money could be used for for your business. I can understand that some people may see an opportunity and think, yeah, I have a food business and like, let me read this RFA. So it's a request for funding announcement.

That just means like, they're just telling you a grant's available. That's all that means. So this document or like this announcement saying the money is there, right? But they're really limit what you're able to do. And they will probably have meetings and technical calls for you to like learn about that. And it can be a lot to read. The great part about RFAs is that that's also your opportunity to say, does this fit me?

Michelle Bond (12:22)
Right.

Joan Kanner (12:40)
So again, going back to what I was initially saying, what would the money support? know, are we talking like being someone from the food world? Is this [funding] for a food truck, is this a grant that's meant to increase staff size and support people on your team for a year? Is this meant to cover your rent for two years? You know, something like something like that's covering your rent, I think is a little easier to explain or like, yeah, I need that.

Michelle Bond (12:41)
Mm

Joan Kanner (13:03)
I rent right now, if you pay that, that's great. It's really different than saying like project wise, I want to include a person who is meant to take my wholesale to a whole different level. But you would have to have that need. There's also, I think like that tug of actually, yeah, I do want to increase something like my wholesaling.

and it's dependent on this grant.

so as a business owner, and I can't decide that for you, right? It's like, are you gonna have the project in mind? And if a grant can help, awesome. But if not, you're gonna work to like build that out with your existing revenue or take on a loan. You have to have that idea in mind. And I think it's good not to lead with, this is an award for a food truck.

I will just get the food truck and I will somehow magically make it work and figure out where to park it and if I need it and like, how will I maintain it? You know, so I think it's good to think about your next growth points relative to a grant opportunity. And that will also help you know, come spec-ing out how it's relevant to your business and then reporting on it if you get it.

Michelle Bond (14:04)
Yeah. And that's where, you know, of course, business plans are helpful. but even just, just a standard action plan, a three month, you know, every 90 days, what am I trying to get done in this period of time and in what realms of the business? So there's, you know, the, the operational pieces, what does it take to, do the day to day? What are the processes? Who are the people involved in that? As you're saying, because that can lead you down the road of like, wow, okay. I'm looking for an equipment grant because.

this piece of machinery will help me do what I need to do either more efficiently or it will help me be able to do more of it. Same thing with people, right? A lot of these grants are tied to creating jobs. And so, you know, the difference between being able to bring on another person that can be at least startup funded by some outside money or to create another...

revenue stream for your business by being able to create a new product, create a new offering. So those are the operational pieces. There's also then things like marketing, right? Oftentimes there are small, even like micro business grants for maybe $5,000 that can help with marketing efforts. So if you've taken the time to think through,

some sort of marketing strategy, whether that's on social media, earned media, whether you're working with a PR person, you can activate these kinds of grants. And that can go pretty far. Maybe you have an email list, but you haven't activated it yet. So you want to get new software or new programming to help you automate some of your regular messages to your customers. We're going into the fall, so maybe you want to think about your holiday.

strategy and how you're going to get back in touch with some of the customers that you've gotten all year long. some of these smaller amounts are available and pretty easy to tap into, but it helps to have those plans in place already because the grant is going to ask you questions not only having to do with your capacity, right Joan? This has been where you were talking about with who's on your team because they want to know that you have the expertise to

Joan Kanner (16:10)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (16:11)
receive the grant and do due diligence with it, essentially. So there's that piece of it. But then there's also just, what are you going to do? What are your aims? Who are you going to serve? And then the measurement pieces of that. like, you want to show that you've thought through. How are we going to know that we did the thing that we said that we were going to do with this money? I mean, that's at its base is what it comes down to.

Joan Kanner (16:33)
I appreciate how dynamic this is already becoming of a conversation. Sustainability is key. Sustainability, yeah. I think you mentioned the piece about, you know, like having the people. So sometimes grants are meant to get you started on something. Michelle said the marketing piece and eventually be able to do it on your own. It's meant to like kind of jumpstart something you would have. I think it's good to keep that in mind.

Michelle Bond (16:36)
Yeah, well, I would do.

Joan Kanner (16:57)
to have to say, okay, like then once this grant runs out, don't assume the other one grant is going to be waiting for you because it probably won't. Are you making enough income to justify this position? And something came up recently. Sometimes I sit in on like these, here we go, I'm revealing too much already. I'll sit in these different funding sources like USDA and I'll just say well, like what are their grant requirements? What are they asking people to do? Like how are their technical meetings...

working when it comes to people like us, like entrepreneurs who may not have a background like I do, like how does, do they explain stuff, what's, what's needed. And one thing I thought was really interesting was that they want to make sure when it comes to the personnel charges that you have for this award, you're including time for yourself as a business owner. Let say that again. So you're hearing like literally. and if people are hearing this episode and going like, I don't pay myself now. Okay. Then maybe like,

Michelle Bond (17:37)
Hmm. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (17:47)
then pause and then come back to this episode another time. But that really that surprised me in a positive way when I heard that from USDA because when I worked for universities, to have the principal investigator, who's essentially the head of the project, who's just like the owner of a business, right? These are all like these leaders. If you didn't have like 10, 15, 20% of your time going based on a 40-hour workweek, which I know is not realistic for us, but you know what I mean? But

if you didn't have that person a certain amount of part of their salary gets paid by the by the grant, because you were working out for that many hours per week. If you don't have that in mind you're not getting the grant. and I really liked hearing that when it to working with food entrepreneurs, where that means like, you're paying yourself. And then these, you know, five or six hours per week, let's say your effort is dedicated to maintaining this.

which is needed to make sure like their progress is happening. To get it done.

Michelle Bond (18:41)
Yeah, I think that is a shift.

I think that definitely signals a shift in, you know, small business supports, but, you know, industry specific as well, because that's something that's often taken for granted. And, you know, in order for it, you need to work yourself out of that position. So in order for it to be sustainable, it needs to be what you would be paying for someone to carry on that work, whether it's you or someone else.

Joan Kanner (19:09)
No exactly it makes everything like more realistic I once worked with a university department which reminded me of nonprofits and also businesses I've interacted with. came to their grant see oftentimes applied for a grant.

that asked for you to like kick in your own money so it was like more of like a match.

Michelle Bond (19:25)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's not uncommon. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (19:26)
And so let's say the grant. Yeah, you know, then I so when it comes to that, so literally is a match. Let's say something was for $50,000. But you had to kick in your own $50,000 and demonstrate where your source was for that money, not the ether. Like, like literally having that to be able to match with the 50.

Michelle Bond (19:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joan Kanner (19:48)
So you would have to demonstrate, look, we have this much money, but man, we had double, we can actually make all these different things happen, X, Y, and Z happen for our department, for our business. And it would blow my mind that like they would want to cost share in that regard. But regardless, that might be something you might be seeing too. And I think you'd have to be further along as a business with a lot of revenue coming in to make sense for you. Because you would be on the hook. And while...

sponsors, grant sponsors generally don't want to claw back those funds from you unless you're like lying about the data or lying about what you did, in which case they will take your money generally 80% of the time. They generally don't want to, they want to work with you, they know that progress on something might be sluggish. If they're doing quarterly or twice a year progress reporting, they'll probably have sense of like why things might be slipping because you're reporting back to them.

I don't know if people realize how much reporting is involved when you get a grant.

Michelle Bond (20:48)
So Joan, we've talked about different considerations, different things awardees are looking for. We've touched on reporting, though I know we'll go a little bit more into that later. So a business has identified a need, right? Maybe it's for a piece of equipment. Maybe it's for a marketing strategy. Maybe they need to hire. How do people go about finding the sources for these RFAs, just people who have money available and are looking to support small businesses?

Joan Kanner (21:11)
not to be discouraging, I feel like there seems to be a million and one points of light when it comes to like grant funding that could be out there. but if you know what would be helpful to you, I think that you can be a little more specific. I would start geographically. Let me put it this way. If you're in a city, a lot of times it's a main street program.

Michelle Bond (21:16)
Yeah.

Joan Kanner (21:28)
And they can have money for small business, Main Streets or Michelle, you've been part of that. You've been on boards and stuff for Main Streets, but they oftentimes receive state, if not federal funding to be able to support small business, everything from, you know, a facade grant. You have a physical presence in that way. don't want to in any way. If you're a consultant or you're very flexible in terms of where you work, I don't want to exclude you. But they have grants like that and other things meant to keep communities more vibrant.

I mean, truly like a mom and pop level, is oftentimes is good, but these are different grants for communities. So you can consider where your local Main Street office is. Then you can go more like city-wide or town-wide. And you can see if you have a business development center in your community, I realized in some more rural areas.

that you're gonna have something at a county level, which is totally fine. They all look different, but Baltimore has Baltimore Community Development. And you can have different cities or counties may have those areas. And they work with a variety of businesses. That's something before you have a specific thing in mind if you just take the time and look at their websites and see who you can contact.

One thing about the grants world and universities, and it applies to small business too, is just if you can get a contact or two at these sponsoring agencies, keep that line of communication going. See who works there. I know there's turnover that's gonna happen everywhere. I'm not trying to discourage you. But just know, who are the players when it comes to this? Because in a larger organization, you may have some people that work with food and some people...

Michelle Bond (22:46)
Right. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (23:03)
work with development, like developing spaces and properties and other people may work with technology and that person can lead you to other resources.

Also, don't be surprised if have small business entities that, mean, Michelle and I have experienced this too, when it comes to Bottoms Up Bagels, may talk with these people and they have these highfalutin titles and these small business agencies and they're like, yeah, eventually when you have this massive plan, we can give you tax credits. So it's also good to kind of figure that out too. Shade thrown, again, aisle nine. But they have

you know, big salaries and big money and they can only really help you and it's really one really like specific area. Whereas I would just be happy if they couldn't give me any money, but they can kind of have a wraparound service for my business and then point me different directions. You know, like, yeah, like you can actually go ahead and get some free meditation here, but then here's like a grant for equipment over here. And these people, when you're ready, can help give you a loan to build out your own space and here's

grants that we have to like rehab dilapidated buildings. So places that would just give you the information. There's still value in that and they could also lead you to more things. I think a lot of people also point to SBA at a more state or national level and that could be fine. But I think it also doesn't hurt to look at your industry and see who might be funding that specifically.

Michelle Bond (24:11)
Mm

Joan Kanner (24:21)
generally and then also think about as Michelle was saying what needs you may have either now or just even just a touch sooner for your stretch goals.

Michelle Bond (24:28)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And the only thing I would add to that is think about it from a few different angles because a lot of times there are, and this is why having that contact person or that relationship with somebody in some of these offices is really helpful because they tend to be kind of the clearing houses for a lot of these opportunities. Like once you get onto some of these lists, you'll start to get the same, know, like when COVID.

happened and there were all these different resources at the local and national level. Oftentimes we would get flooded. Something's coming from the city, something's coming from the development corporation, something's coming from Main Street, something's coming from Made in Baltimore in there, but they're all trying to get the word out about these opportunities. Depending on where you're based, if you're connected to your economic development office,

If you're connected to maybe your women's business center or your minority-owned business center, there are different things that will come across. And if you're in regular contact, there's oftentimes pockets of money that are out there that are just, they're not as visible or they're not as, well, visible. not as in front, they're not hidden, but they're just not top of mind. So for example, like sometimes, you know, a state's department of labor office.

might have grants for a certain thing. Their department for housing and community development might have grants available for another thing. A lot of times tech and innovation and that doesn't necessarily even be limited to actual technology. But if you have a product that is a locally sourced product and

in a new way of using it to reach a customer base that might qualify. There are a lot of different angles at which you can make an argument for these things. so part of that is to just like look at different aspects of your local state and national offices in this regard. But just to reiterate, Joan, your point of developing relationships with people at some of these centers because they can help you.

When something becomes available, I'm sure they have a mailing list that just sends it out to everybody. But the other thing is, for the stuff that's not as readily available, they might help give you a few different lanes to explore that you might not have thought about when you were initially just saying, I need to buy a new oven, or I need to hire a graphic designer. Sometimes you can be creative about the funding sources that are available. And oftentimes, those have

this is a generalization, but I feel like those applications are a little bit more straightforward. They don't require, you know, maybe the level of depth or comprehensiveness that a traditional RFP or something like that that's blasted out would require.

Joan Kanner (27:08)
Yeah, I think on this one at the same things, Michelle, that comes down to it as well, a couple of things. One is that if you're looking for a massive clearinghouse, you can just like log into something and just see all the grants that may be available to you. There is no such magical place, but I will be putting something in our show notes where if you are a female founder, there will be some great resources for you. I do struggle with this topic a little bit too, given how general we have to talk.

about this because there so many different industry specific things that could be helpful to you. And I know I personally get frustrated when it comes to talks that are like super macro, just like about being a boss. I'm like, but a boss in what? Because remote work is different than being in a kitchen versus different than other things. So, you know, like versus being on a farm.

Michelle Bond (27:36)
Mm

Thanks

Joan Kanner (27:49)
And one of the elephants in the room, is size of the award and the related technical aspects to it. And this has been the case for me back in universities. It's the case for me as a small business owner. The size of the award does not relate to the technical requirements. And you will have to do the level of the application like that lift.

and also the reporting on it. Some of the most, you know what mean? Like the amount of thinking about your personal time. this is especially even more so I feel like in small business than even like the university work. Although there was definitely some challenging sponsors there, but people would go for that money anyway, just to say they like, I got the award. And yeah, there is that piece of just like, I'm such and such, you know, grant awardee. Great. But unless they're gonna work with you.

Michelle Bond (28:12)
Yes, my God. Let's talk about that.

Joan Kanner (28:37)
and your PR, your marketing or yourself to like really pump that up. Is it worth it for you? You can have a grant for $1,500 What that would cover, I don't know. How's that covering your time to put together the application, I don't know. And they will have a really elaborate, sometimes even involving like a video,

level of application like written and video and complete a course and like show me your financials and it's just like would you do that in real life would you show anybody anything for how much money you know and then they want to have you also report on it and do all this work for them

Michelle Bond (28:56)
Yeah, complete a course and yeah.

I mean, some people...

Yeah, I think depending on where you're at, right? I mean, this is something that only you can answer and what the value of your time is for some people, like any bit helps, right? So if it's a $500 grant and I have to do a bunch of paperwork and that's 500 bucks, I didn't have before. for other people, like it's, it may not be worth it, or, it may be worth kind of stacking the time that you would put into applying for something. That's a smaller amount.

and using it towards a larger award. I totally agree. mean, I've had $1,000 awards take way more time and have a lot more hoops than literally some $25,000 and up ones. It's just good to be mindful of. And I think even if sometimes these applications are a stretch, it's good practice.

And this leads us right into the conversation about components.

the pieces that you'll be putting together for something, whether it does have a lot of requirements or whether it's a little bit more straightforward, the pieces are generally the same. What tends to vary is the level of depth of documentation and backup stuff required, and also in some cases, basic eligibility. So I noticed that for some of these grants that came out post-COVID, there

was an initial eligibility step, which is not even the application. It's like maybe 7 to 10 requirements that you need to meet in order to even be able to apply, which I think is important because it saves time, certainly on the part of the awardee, for going through applications for places that are never eligible, but also for you. So you can know right away. And a lot of times, those things have to just do with what's your entity type? Do you have a business bank account?

What are your profits and loss? Do you meet a minimum revenue threshold? And that's not to say if you're pre-revenue that you can't find something, but there are different awards for different types of businesses at different stages. And so I think just knowing that ahead of time saves you time and then also helps you put your energy where it's gonna yield you the best result. Another thing that for those quick eligibility questions,

Oftentimes, maybe they're looking for basics like a business plan or a track record, how long you've been in business, things like that. And they really vary, especially if another thing I wanted to mention earlier is like post-COVID, especially a lot of these private or quasi private organizations have stemmed up, know, like distilleries are giving grants for things and, you know, a lot of people are looking for ways to help contribute to

the small business landscape. And so they can basically make up the requirements, which is a little bit different when it comes to, I mean, they can't discriminate, but like it's different than maybe the requirements that are coming out of a government agency, whether it's at the local or federal level. So, you know, want to be mindful of those things, but then beyond that, even if the questions are worded differently, most of these applications are going to consist of, you know, who are you?

as a business, what's your story? whether that's worded in terms of mission or vision, whether it's worded in terms of origin, whether it's tell us how you got started, some way to encapsulate who you are as a business and what you're about, what you're trying to do, what your products are, who you serve, those kinds of things.

And a lot of times, too, these questions are, there might be some later down the line, depending on who the funder is, but this is also a good time to, if you have an environmental

aspect to your business. If you have a community aspect to your business, a lot of times more and more of these applications are asking about community impact or about environmental impact or things like that. it's a, if, know, preview the questions and there may be an opportunity to go more in depth, but it's always good to also include right at the onset when you're talking about what you make and who you serve. This is really like what your why is the problem you're trying to solve and

what you bring to it uniquely as your business.

Joan Kanner (33:16)
The why really matters when a lot of these monies are from taxpayer dollars, ultimately. And as a taxpayer, I know I appreciate that.

Michelle Bond (33:22)
Mmm.

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. So yeah, so some version of the who, what, when, where, why, right? Like that's gonna be asked right up front in some form of a question, regardless of who the funder is. Then there's a piece, and Joan, you touched on this way at the beginning, but I think it's really important. There's a team question. Who are the people that we're giving this money to? There's the business.

And in lot of cases, it's sole proprietorship or if you're just getting started, you are your business, but they want to know who you are as a person, what you bring to bear that is going to make you a good steward of these funds. Is that fair to say?

Joan Kanner (34:01)
That's fair. then look, at the university level, there's like a biosketch is a shorter, like a couple of page write up about yourself or like a total CV, like a resume type thing. Generally, I haven't seen that in business grants, but they will want to know who's the lead on something. If you have more than one founder, like what does each person specialize in? Yeah, for sure. And that definitely helped us out Michelle, given our capabilities with some overlap, but as we know all too well.

Michelle Bond (34:16)
Yeah, capabilities.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (34:26)
having like different, every step of your team are like are meaningful. And then also separately not to too far ahead. Hey, when it comes to doing a pitch deck, then you really frigging need to know what your team is capable of and who's on it.

Michelle Bond (34:38)
Yeah. And in some cases, I've seen this go different way in business grants. Like sometimes it's, what is your education and experience? Sometimes it's how long have you been with the business? Sometimes it's what areas of the business do you focus on versus maybe if you have a co-founder or you have a general manager or something like that. Another way I've seen this question positioned, especially in the last several years is what is the breakdown of your team? So, so part of this is about leadership, right? Like

who are the people responsible for the money and why are they qualified? But the other part of this is who's on your team. So this is where, like in our case, at one point we had three quarters of our team was LGBTQ. So like there was a speaking to the makeup, speaking to the fact that like most of the people who were working with us were from our zip code, from the same zip code where the business was based. So hyper local.

How many jobs did we create? How many people of those people in our case lived in Baltimore city? Like obviously if they're in zip code, they live in Baltimore city, like, you know, like things like that. So, so this is also a team makeup question sometimes it's about leadership, but it's also about if you said you value diversity and community, is that reflected in who's on your team? If you say you value innovation and expertise, is that reflected in your team? So this is kind of like a way to just match it back up to.

not only what you stand for as a business, but like what impact you're trying to have.

Joan Kanner (35:59)
Yep, and of course also gotta mention this specifically for other people in the podcast world. At one point our team had a 50 year age gap and having an intergenerational team and those dynamics was so beautiful. And that may be a thing too. So it's good to think about your strengths as more than just like technically what you're putting out in units every day. Though that matters to some degree as well. But I think it's great that people want to know about that and wanna know.

Michelle Bond (36:09)
Mmm, hell.

was amazing.

Joan Kanner (36:26)
about the potential for resiliency in your business.

Michelle Bond (36:29)
Yeah, no, that's a really good point because people are giving you money and they want to know that, you know, things, things happen all the time, as we all know, right? We didn't need COVID to tell us that, especially as small business owners. And so it's, it's a way of having, not a backup plan, but it's, it just speaks to your ability to pivot if you have, you know, a deep bench, so to speak, and diversity of different kinds. And yes, so then of course, there's going to be a budget component.

And sometimes this is just a matter of seeing where you've been. So this can be looking at, you know, income statements, prior years, profit and loss. Sometimes there will be a request for tax returns and things like that. But if there's a specific, if it's not an unrestricted grant that doesn't, you know, at that doesn't say use it for whatever you want, they're going to want to know what you're trying to fund and how much it's going to cost. And,

Joan Kanner (37:19)
totally tied in with timeline, Michelle, for sure.

Michelle Bond (37:22)
I was just gonna say, yeah, go ahead, Joan.

Joan Kanner (37:25)
And those it's totally tied in with like timeline, just to put a finer point on things when Michelle mentioned financial statements and other things that should be part of the supporting documents. The budget is They really want to know is like when they give you this money, which hopefully you will get, how will it be spent and how much time? And just real quick about that. And this is like for a different level of class, right about grants. It's good to know sometimes if

grant of awards will include pre-award costs. Because sometimes there's a project that you're doing no matter what. And if you get the grant, you know, high five, and that's awesome. it'll offset some of your costs. But you're doing it anyway. You're starting that wholesale program. You're buying that building, you're doing whatever the thing is, and you're a piece of equipment. And sometimes, if you're rewarded, you can go back 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, let's say, if you're awarded, you can pay for things

Michelle Bond (37:52)
Hmm.

Joan Kanner (38:17)
that happen before the period of performance that a grant covers. So the budget that Michelle talked about, that you're submitting, the project, the specific aims that you're talking about, those all relate to a project period that the grant will basically assign. This is what the period that they're actually covering of the work. But on occasion, it's actually really cool to check out whether or not you can backfill stuff you already paid for.

I know that that's helped in the grants and contracts world and that certainly helps in the business world.

Michelle Bond (38:46)
Yeah, because sometimes like this is often the case when, you know, it will take a bit of time to release the funds, but you want to know you have them in order to move forward with something. So, you know, if you're doing a facade grant, for example, you know, you want to get that work done, but you might have to have the work done before you can get the money. And so there again, just...

just become aware of the requirements. And a lot of times the grant officer that you're working with will help you with this. So for example, in that case, you might not have receipts to show because the work hasn't been done yet, but you'll have estimates. And then the estimates will say, okay, yes, we're going to give you this pocket of money to do this piece of work. So that then when the receipts come in, you give them to us and they match what the estimates were. In other cases, it might be, you know, you need to hire somebody and

The money is not going to be available till June, but it's April. If you ask explicitly, will the funds be able to cover this, then you know one way or another. And a lot of times they will, depending on the timing of the award. If they won't, some places, they give you the money and then the clock starts. So then you have to just account for it that way.

Joan, you're much more familiar with this, but it's always just good to ask those questions.

Joan Kanner (40:03)
Yeah. And I feel like I've trust our audience so much to go a little bit deeper with them. Like, you know what I mean? Like they are they're so super smart. And they're so eager to learn. I will say another thing about budgets as you might just see something written in the RFA that talks about the budget and says, like, if you're awarded, you can only move certain line items. So budgets come with different line items. So the lines are just things like, you know, like personnel like Michelle mentioned.

equipment, could be things like travel may be on there. And there may be something specified on the application end that says, look, if you're awarded this money, you can shift around a little bit within your budget because to Michelle's point, things change like who you hire and the timeline, but also what things cost.

which is why it's also good to get estimates and have the estimate also say good through whatever time. But you might have like, you know what, actually I ended up speaking at this conference. So my budget travel budget changed and they want to take the extra $500 I didn't have to spend that I want to move it up towards a personnel line. That's all well and good, but it's reasonable for a sponsor to have something in the RFP or even like in your award that says, Hey, any budget change that's 10 % of your total budget. Talk to me first.

Michelle Bond (41:02)
Mm

Joan Kanner (41:11)
because the assumption there when they ask about knowing what you're moving around is that like, your specific aims, are your key performance indicators, is there something you said you're gonna do that that change? And it's perfectly reasonable. I mean, I think it's again, like we're talking about most likely taxpayer dollars and they're giving you the money to get certain things done. So when money changes and who's getting paid or for what changes, it's reasonable for the assumption to be without an explanation that you ain't getting it done or something has changed without permission.

Michelle Bond (41:40)
Yeah, that's a really good point. And I want to say like probably 9 times out of 10, it's going to be fine. But it's just a matter of communicating to find out what's required. It might actually mean an official other piece of paper that says, you know, 10% of what I thought was going to be marketing is actually personnel. And here's why. And then you might need an official approval and then you move forward. Other times it might literally just be a phone call and saying like, this is what's happening. Is this okay? Yes/no.

And it's always good, even if people aren't requiring it upfront to just document these things, because as long as you have a clear rationale and can account for the money , again, 9 times out of 10, you're going to be fine. They're not going to say, well, you said you were going to spend this on this, but you spent it on this. And I want it back, especially if you can prove to your point just now, Joan, that the moving of those funds.

still helped you achieve that aim and still impacted the same people and still helped you, know, whatever, whatever the goals are, because that's another thing that obviously you're going to have to identify is like, this is the amount of money it will take me to do this. And this will allow me to do what grow, scale, hire more people, you know, create more widgets, have more jobs, you know, that's really what, people are looking for.

market share, you know, so it's how much you need. It's when you're going to be able to have it and spend it. And then it's what is that going to allow you to do as a business? But then more broadly, again, if they're taxpayer dollars, how is this improving, you know, your local economy in some way you're, doing better as a business. that flows back into your community, your tax base, all of those things.

Joan Kanner (43:32)
people who are in charge of these projects, these program officials, they're really not meant to just be solely about Gotcha moments. they're really meant to help you. And again, like they really do want to get them to help you and they want to help you keep the funds and use it well, they want you to be showcased and their annual report, they want to make sure that things are sustainable. But they do need your help. So that's why it's really important to include your time.

Michelle Bond (43:39)
No, they want to help you, mostly. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (43:56)
somewhere in some aspect of this when it comes to not just applying for it, but in the performance and being the project manager for the use of these funds.

Michelle Bond (44:05)
Yeah, you want to tell a good story and you want to be able to back it up. And I think by you telling a good story and being able to back it up, you give your grantor an opportunity to use you to share that story, to amplify that, to show what good they're doing as a funder and the impact that it's having on you as a business in the larger community. so the more that you have your ducks in a row and can do that.

more they're going to come back to you with other opportunities, the more you're going to be seen as a good steward of those funds, the more that they're going to be the person who says, you know what I just learned? There's this, you guys should try that. Just like in the lending world, actually, mean, it's different because obviously you're paying back those monies. Yeah, but it's the same thing. People want, they want a good story and they want you to be able to back it up. And so those are the things that help you then.

Joan Kanner (44:46)
and venture capital.

Michelle Bond (44:57)
get the next opportunity.

Joan Kanner (44:58)
Yeah, think about de-risking your business and also much like certain football players winning one Super Bowl, makes the next one a little bit easier. You have less nerves, you're more prepared. And that's the only sports analogy I will be using today.

Michelle Bond (45:11)
All right, so we've touched on what these things are, how they're not that scary, but there's some things you need to know. What's usually included, where we can find them. Do you want to talk a little bit about the reporting aspect,

Joan Kanner (45:28)
Yeah, believe or not we just talked to you a lot about the pre-award stage. So finding the funding opportunities, making sure you have boilerplate and other things to be able to apply with a quicker turnaround. And we're talking about like getting stuff right when it comes to what you hope to do with the monies and then also the budget and spending but in post-award.

just to be mindful of like, will it cover expenses or pre-award costing before you were awarded? Will it cover that? Reporting is basically how often they go to you or ask for reports from you. One, don't be surprised if you're reporting to a different system than you applied in. I don't know why there isn't like one system to like where you apply and then like you get the award and then documentation, then you submit, you your progress reporting. But.

Michelle Bond (46:08)
Hmm.

Joan Kanner (46:15)
There's that so you're have to like do a little bit of work with software and depend the type of business you have like maybe you're not too happy about that but that that is what's needed for compliance and that's up to them. Sometimes it's just submitting through email but then you have to think about it sometimes what you're submitting is sensitive so actually it is good to have systems that are behind firewalls. So there's that aspect the mechanics of submitting something.

but how frequently you need to give a report to see where you're at and the format of that progress report, which usually involves two aspects no matter what else they ask you for, which is what did you get to and how much, how is your spending going? And they may ask for receipts for things. think we may have touched on this, but some grants kind of pay you back for what you did, they are completely separate from the other ones we've been talking about,

And as you do the work, you submit a receipt and they give you money back. There's that. And that can be done monthly, that can be quarterly, that can be twice a year. Sometimes they want to hear from you until like one year in and at that point, I'm just like, well, shit, like what if I'm behind in my spending? That's where it's really incumbent upon you to find out how often they're going to be touching base. So one is system two is how often they want to know

Michelle Bond (47:01)
Mm -hmm, right.

Joan Kanner (47:18)
which is actually dictated usually by the prime sponsor where the money is coming from because if they need to report once a year the feds, they may ask you to report twice a year to get more of a handle on your stuff to compile their stuff to submit to the feds. So find like all that out. It's not impossible, but definitely it's not up to you. The good part of that is that that means meeting once a month with your team members to see where things were at specifically when it comes to that spending and that progress. It's actually good to just have your hands in that.

because the last thing that you wanna do is like cram, like cramming for a test, you don't wanna have to get all your stuff together to submit to a system you've never frigging used before to get to people in time because people will hound you for that information. Gosh, Michelle, I've been that person on the other end. This feels, this feels close to home. I've been the nudger, but it's really just cause like I care so much about these funds and where they go. Again, taxpayer.

Michelle Bond (48:01)
You have, yes.

Joan Kanner (48:11)
So those are things to think about in the post-award end.

Michelle Bond (48:15)
So I feel like in some ways this was a deeper dive or maybe just we touched on a lot of different aspects of a lot of different types of grants. And so I'm with you Joan, I think our audience can hang. just as we wrap up, did you want to, maybe we just give a few key takeaways so that if nothing else, you can just keep these things top of minds when it comes to grants for your business.

Joan Kanner (48:37)
Sure, let's see what my brain comes up with. That's always a fun time. Grants. Number one, grants come from sponsors who may have a prime sponsor. And generally, that involves taxpayer dollars swishing around somewhere in there. Keep that in mind.

Michelle Bond (48:48)
Number one.

Joan Kanner (49:01)
Grants involve RFAs so request for funding announcement. And those will have everything from eligibility requirements, which saves you a lot of time. Look at that first. You can figure out the rest. And they'll have a project component. Sometimes it's more specific, like Michelle stated, like for equipment up to so much money.

Michelle Bond (49:11)
Yes.

Joan Kanner (49:17)
you know, and that's like really like I said, you know, yes or no, or do I have something in mind for that or not? And also if you're asking for 30K and it's a 50K bit of equipment, consider where the rest of that money might come from. You'll be buying it. So it also involves things like team. Don't be surprised about that to see if you have the people to support the work that you're going to be doing. It also involves if you are awarded

having a connection with that sponsor, getting a sense of their reporting. Again, don't be surprised of how you submit. It's very different when it comes to the reporting aspect of it. I think I touched on this earlier. To me, also post-award, you get those funds, I'd say almost 100% of the time, if not 100% of the time, it's gonna be treated as revenue for your business. So yeah, you didn't have to sell something to make that money, but you are including time to submit to that.

time for your team members to work on something, make sure you include that in your budget and then realize that when you meet with your accountant, which I definitely hope you have, even if you do your own bookkeeping, it will come on as revenue. You're going to get something, you're going to get a piece of paper, either electronically or sent to your business that says this is the money that we gave you and it's treated just as revenue would be. So keep that in mind too, there's always a tax implication for these things. But it's still worth it to you. Believe it not, I'm still saying that as my letter D, it's still

don't know what letter I'm up to. But I'll say definitely it's so worth it depending on what you're hoping to do with the funds.

And the show notes are gonna have a bunch of definitions. And like I said, there's definitely one repository of grants. Even though they're rare. This is one I still feel like could be valuable to you. Even if they don't apply to you, just to get a sense of what information is out there and from which sources.

Michelle Bond (51:01)
Yeah. And the last takeaway I'll add, or the last synthesized comment has to do with telling your story as a business. Because I think, Joan, you've used the word boilerplate many a times, and we've done a lot of fast forwarding with some of this technical stuff that I think is really important, especially as you get into this world. It's important not to lose sight of the fact of, you know, just getting practiced at telling the story of your business, who you're serving.

what you're making, why you got started is something that never gets old. It might get old to you. know sometimes it feels like everybody knows this already, but the more practice that you have of that, the better. It's like helpful in so many ways, especially as you grow your business and seek different kinds of funding opportunities. So that boiler plate is really just things that you can pull and tailor of course to the opportunity ahead of you.

If you're writing for equipment, you want to speak to that. If you're writing about environment, you want to speak to that. if you have these core pieces in mind, or on paper, that's going to make it so much easier and it's going to make the turnaround time and the lift for applying for things way easier. And often, you can apply for multiple things at once that way from different sources.

Joan Kanner (52:06)
And again, the best person to do that storytelling or at least to be the lead on it is you as a business owner.

Michelle Bond (52:12)
All right, Joan, what else do people need to know about, proofing stage and what's going on?

Joan Kanner (52:16)
We're happy to have them here, listening, reading the transcript. I am so happy to be in season three with you. Who knew? We knew. We knew it would happen. I'm just happy that we also have a growing community on Patreon. So this is one of our episodes that's free. We want to make sure that we keep that resource available, we're also really grateful for the people who keep the lights on.

Michelle Bond (52:26)
Yeah.

Joan Kanner (52:38)
necessarily lights, but people say that anyway, right? I mean, it's like the recording software that we're doing, the transcription and all that. But we are grateful to the people who listen here, but then also have extra tidbits on Patreon. Thank you so much for supporting the show. And if you would like to join us in that regard, that will also be in the show notes.

Michelle Bond (52:57)
Absolutely. And at the very least, make sure that you are following proofing stage wherever you get your pods. That helps with our downloads, which helps with other support that we're able to get. Drop us a rate, Reviews are really important. They get other people to pay attention to what we're doing and see if they want to give it a try for themselves.

Joan Kanner (53:16)
anything less than five stars, you can email the show and I will personally communicate with you to make it right. The star reviews help when it comes to things like Apple podcasts, right? But also as Michelle said, the descriptions are really what drive people to a show and like help them see if it makes sense for them or not.

There's also a great opportunity for people who are just joining us because of this juicy episode. That's an intro to grants to be able to look through our catalog of episodes, whether or not they join us on Patreon, which I hope you do, and just see more about what we're about and get some tips and tricks. And as always, if people want to recommend either a guest to have on the show or a topic they would like us to cover, we would love to hear from you. And I am not just saying that gives me something to do.

Michelle Bond (54:01)
For sure. And in addition to proofing stage plus, which is where you can subscribe and support the show, there's also an option. If you're listening through Apple pods, you can also just subscribe right there and all of our bonus episodes will fall in line in your feed. And so I think we're up upwards of like 30 episodes, counting some bonuses right now. So we're excited to

Keep it going. We look forward to hearing from you and we thank you so much for listening and sharing Proofing Stage

Joan Kanner (54:33)
Yeah, Michelle, how about them podcast grants? wait, I don't think there are any.

Michelle Bond (54:37)
Working it, working it. Let's see.

All right, y 'all, take care.

Joan Kanner (54:42)
The more you know.

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