HR Magic with The Human Resorceress

Joanne Lakomski, Human Resorceress Coaching and Consulting

At a time of year when we can feel overwhelmed, reflective, daunted and blessed (often within the same 30 minutes), we've got a salve for both your personal and professional pain points. This week Michelle and Joan connect with Joanne Lakomski, the Human Resorceress, bringing years of expertise in HR and Organizational Development to her coaching and consulting practice. 

Joanne's sorcery leverages a love and articulation of concepts and how they can illustrate what's at play in our work environments, and in our own minds. Her powers encourage deep listening and engagement, breaking down challenges to their specific elements and giving us a different lens through which to examine them. 

Our conversation is as warm and deep as it is silly and real, and offers the perfect treat for yourself this holiday season. Whether you're looking to take stock of 2024 milestones, or plan for new approaches in 2025, our time with Joanne puts the humanity of HR front and center, and gives plenty of potent wisdom for us to proof on and practice in the process. 

Some enchanted takeaways:

• Bev naps as the tried and true whiteboard
• Workplace quid pro quos when it comes to authenticity
• The neuroscience behind our decision making
• How you show up and the power of being seen
• Having clarity of purpose and alignment tools to get there
• Being jazzed about embracing our female power

Connect with Joanne:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joanne-lakomski/

humanresorceress.org

Links:

Bev Nap Wisdom

Mihaly "The Father of Flow" Csikszentmihalyi

See Joanne's Flow Diagram bev nap

coaching.com

Credits:

Theme Music by Thorn Haze

Additional Music: Asimov by fanchisanchez (via Pixabay)

Podcast Cover Art by Lisa Orye

Produced by Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

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Transcript

Joanne Lakomski (00:00)
And I threw in the idea that a favorite Buddhist concept being attachment is suffering and so being very conscious of what I attach to because it will cause me suffering.

Joan Kanner (00:15)
Yeah, I feel like a bunch of people are gonna realize that over the next couple of years.

Michelle Bond (00:19)
So was like, especially now.


[podcast intro begins]

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure.

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kanner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner.

Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories. 

Michelle Bond
Together, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between "Atta girl!" and "I told you so."

[podcast intro ends]


Joan Kanner (01:29)
As The Human Resorceress Joanne provides coaching and organization development consulting to individuals and organizations. She has over 20 years of experience in potential clients to optimize themselves, their teams and their processes. Using a unique set of methodologies, Joanne generates positive shifts in the human resource contribution through the lens of the customer, employee and bottom line. And Joanne reminds us that while unleashing this potential and performance of people and teams,

culture of learning, growth, and success is created. I will also add that Joanne is a returned Peace Corps volunteer having served in South Africa with my co-host, Michelle Bond.

Joanne Lakomski (02:09)
Yes!

Michelle Bond (02:12)
What? Amazing. I know. We had to reach back in the... Exactly. Thank you. That was the expression I could not come up with.

Joanne Lakomski (02:13)
Yeah, I remember that.

Yes, the annals of time.

Joan Kanner (02:25)
I feel like there's photographic evidence. I mean, it is like daguerreotypes, but there's photographic evidence of you guys serving.

Joanne Lakomski (02:30)
How old are we exactly? I don't want to know. Yes.

Michelle Bond (02:34)
my goodness. Yeah. No, this is such a pleasure. I don't know why we didn't do it sooner, but I'm very excited to sit down with you and just have a good conversation, which seems to be what it always is. So thank you for joining us.

Joanne Lakomski (02:50)
I am delighted to be here because the opportunity to just sit and chat and engage and think new ways with people that I like and admire and have had adventures with, it's excellent stuff. So thanks.

Michelle Bond (03:04)
Yeah, you're very welcome.

Joanne Lakomski (03:07)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (03:08)
And Joan, you have been following, you've been like a fan follower of Joanne in recent years, I know via LinkedIn and had the idea to bring her on. Do you want to talk about your inspiration for that?

Joan Kanner (03:25)
Well, Joanne, even without your posts, I'm definitely a fan of yours. One thing that people who listen in or read our transcripts need to know about is your beverage napkin wisdom. So I definitely want to hear more about that so people can understand, first of all, what it is. And I'm super curious about the practice of regularly posting something.

Joanne Lakomski (03:26)
No.

Okay, well, back in the day, long before I was in the Peace Corps, I was a bartender and learned that the little white napkins they give you at bars are called Bev Naps. And how often have I sat someplace with an adult or non-adult beverage and jotted notes, exchanged ideas with whoever I'm sitting with, wrote a note to remember something.

And so the idea of the value of the Bev Nap and conceptually having it carry forward to share wisdom seemed like fun and a bit of a, version of a blog perhaps. So I appreciate the idea that there's some regularity to it and that's about as tight as I get. I was trying to do it weekly and sometimes the inspiration isn't there. What I do find is I'm attracted to a

quote or a concept and I get it onto the napkin and then I start riffing on it with the message I know is coming from the napkin for me and I'm writing in LinkedIn and I read it and think, "that's not what I think at all." And so writing it on the napkin and then I work it and figure out what is the message here for me. So that's kind of what I've been doing and it's cool. I appreciate it I have Bev Naps now in my life and I'm trying to also spread the

word that it's not a beverage napkin, it's a Bev Nap

Michelle Bond (05:18)
I, you know, it's funny. I didn't, very familiar with what I thought to be beverage napkins or cocktail napkins, but I've been, I've been schooled. So I love it.

Joanne Lakomski (05:23)
I'm

I didn't mean to school anybody. Yeah, it's a little pendantic.

Michelle Bond (05:31)
No, no, no. mean, well, I didn't even know you were a bartender. I mean, that's a fun tidbit.

Joanne Lakomski (05:36)
Yeah. I could make one of those statements like, I'm not sure you were born yet then, Michelle, so we'll see.

Michelle Bond (05:41)
Yes.

god. Fair. Fair. no, I think it's a brilliant idea because as, as people who, well, as creatives and people who struggle to find a regular way to practice that, it strikes me as a very simple, not easy, but a, but a simple, way to try to instate that kind of a practice. And, and then just the idea of the Bev Nap as it's kind of

role in our consciousness as like you were mentioning, know, and I, when I first saw you starting to do this, I thought of, you know, just how many times I've written furiously on napkins in different places, because that's all that was available. And I always wondered like, if I had left any behind somewhere or like how cool it would be to kind of come across like something else that somebody wrote. And so even though it's an electronic format, I feel like, you know, your handwritten

Joanne Lakomski (06:37)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (06:44)
thought or quote or thing that sparks those reflections is a version of that. I don't know, it just feels a little bit of like magic.

Joanne Lakomski (06:52)
Yes, a little nugget, a little gift. I like that, yeah.

Joan Kanner (06:57)
I think that the length of the napkins, although you have a different narrative underneath, which is very helpful, Joanne, the length is like very au courant. It's just like long enough and like thought provoking. And I think it allows the reader to then understand if they want to go on or not. And of course, I have to I would be so remiss if I didn't say this. But Southwest Airlines began, it began on a napkin. And if you ever do that, you ever fly Southwest, sometimes you get a Bev Nap on your own that does like have like recreates that initial message. So a lot can happen with it in a small space.

Joanne Lakomski (07:05)
Okay.

yes, yes, that's cool.

Michelle Bond (07:29)
Well, I'll just say one more thing. But Joanne, one of the things that I've always appreciated about you being such a baby when I met you and not knowing anything about anything, you always... So Joanne and I were in the Peace Corps in the late, actually at when, you know, the turn of the century, literally the most current century, thankfully.

Joan Kanner (07:30)
Okay.

Michelle Bond (07:51)
You know, Y2K and all that kind of stuff. know, I had never really, I had a psychology background and a PR background. And I was really, my brain was on fire about like facilitation and training and, you know, cross-cultural stuff. But I didn't know how all this stuff worked. And I didn't know there were industries that did these things. And I just have the most fond memories of you...

Joanne Lakomski (07:51)
We're not that old.

Michelle Bond (08:19)
...leading impromptu facilitated conversation. Sometimes there was like a news print involved, but at a backpackers or at a side table or something when we were all able to get together. I feel like the Bev Naps, that makes perfect sense, right? I feel like it's an extension of your superpowers in that way. And I think that's also what struck Joan about what power little things can have.

Joanne Lakomski (08:23)
haha

Yes?

Yeah, it's cool.

That's, love, thank you for sharing that. That's a, I remember feeling "other" as I would try to be, "let's facilitate something." Here we go in the Peace Corps. So I appreciate that was your memory. Thanks.

Michelle Bond (08:55)
Yeah, of course.

Joan Kanner (09:18)
We got on to numerology. I believe you said, Joanne, that your mom is 92. This is total coincidence. I'm not bullshitting people. My favorite Bev Nap Wisdom was number 92, and it was about covering. Joanne, please tell us what is covering, and we'll go to some examples of how folks display it.

Joanne Lakomski (09:23)
Yes.

So the covering I referenced in the bev nap was especially associated with the work world, but there's really no reason to put that guardrail on that. And it's when we practice the downplaying of a stigmatized identity that we have. The examples I gave started with perhaps, I've always been tall. I haven't, well, I'm probably getting shorter now, but.

Michelle Bond (10:09)
See prior conversation. No.

Joanne Lakomski (10:11)
Yes. And when you're tall and female in the 60s, it was weird in fifth grade to be taller than everybody around you. And so then I would kind of cover my tallness with a change in my posture. And then my father, who had huge hands and was very tall, would grab my shoulders and rip them back so that I would stand up straight. So the covering for me.

has been at different times not wanting to draw attention to some identity I hold, or probably some of it is to which I think people attribute me. I was in Germany when Ronald Reagan was president and told everyone I was Canadian for some reason. I don't remember the politics of what was going on, but I didn't want to be American at the time. And so there is just, it's a hiding of self. It's happening in many different ways.

Michelle Bond (10:58)
Mmm.

Joanne Lakomski (11:09)
throughout the many people and peoples in ways that we humans stigmatize each other or diss each other or downplay each other. So in the workplace, what I've experienced is you read an advertisement and the company says,

First they describe themselves, "we're wonderful, we're amazing, people are our most important asset, blah, blah, blah." And then, you know, the work that they have you do, "you're going to find yourself, you're going to be amazing, this'll be the best place." And then you get there and the odds of it being that way are very slim. And so you think you're going in and you're bringing your all and you're authentic and they want you that way. And then slowly you erode.

To be something that they are looking for. And I don't know that we need to always be our full authentic self in every setting. And certainly when someone pays you, there is a quid pro quo action there. But to kind of suck your soul into something saying how wonderful it will be, and then to find yourself eroding as you cover what I am. So.

Michelle Bond (12:12)
Mm-hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (12:29)
I take covering or thinking about it kind of personally. It's everywhere. And how much do I want to hide myself from whoever I'm with? So there's a personal choice there also.

Joan Kanner (12:41)
I think without consequence to displaying who you are, the physical stuff that you mentioned, Joanne, different parts of like my personality, this is all different than code switching, which we kind of like just barely touch on in a prior episode without having the consequence of certain things. Like when you were saying like, yeah, I'm Canadian because you either experienced or proceed that you would experience some rebuff or some negative reaction if you stated that you were an American citizen.

It's a painful thing to cover up.

Joanne Lakomski (13:13)
Yes, yes, yeah, it's not a positive way of being.

Joan Kanner (13:20)
But it sounds like it's survival. And it's again, like it doesn't come out of nothing. There's a reason as to why people engage in that. I think having the term to use in the come so that makes me more aware of the ways in which I have done that same thing. I can actually like then like link different behaviors to that same concept.

Joanne Lakomski (13:40)
Yeah, and think about, and you employ other people, and think about your experience as you reflect. I'm covering, and I'm having the experience of covering, and what percent of you stops coming to work or stops entering that situation with your all? Yeah, there's a cost.

Michelle Bond (13:55)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think especially in a changing, mean, things are always changing, right? But it's, but changing, we've talked about this a little bit, we talked about it over dinner, and we've talked about a little bit on the pod, how even in just the last, you know, the period through COVID, and since then, and certainly in our current climate, where, you know, there is such an effort.

or has been or in certain circles, right? I feel like everything I say now has to be caveated because really don't know what you're getting from anywhere. But, you know, the effort to create space or at least allow space for people to show up in the ways that, you know, are meaningful to them. So to your point, maybe it's not your full authentic self in every situation, but that idea of

being eroded or having to cover to the extent that it is detrimental to your emotional mental well-being is terrible, right? And so as an employer trying to make sure that spaces are open for people to feel their way through that at least or not automatically feel like I have to cover is something that we've certainly been intentional about. And I know a lot of the people that

we've talked with on the pod and the types of businesses they represent do that too. And there's this interesting rub with women and underrepresented founders in general though where sometimes those efforts end up doing the same thing to those leaders, you know, and on one hand it's like, heavy lies the crown, right? Like, boo hoo.

But I mean, it does speak to the need for, know, not maybe within your own team in that kind of a way. If you're in a leadership position, you really need to be just like making sure you're leading and making sure you're taking care of your people. But I'd be curious in the work that you've done over the years with people who are in more leadership positions, how they've experienced the need to cover and also where they have found

support in being able to have space for themselves as they have tried to create that space for other people.

Joanne Lakomski (16:21)
I'm going to add a concept that I think Michelle will be familiar with, and that is Sawubona. And so in South Africa, many of the tribal languages don't say, they don't translate into English as, "hey, how are you doing?" But more it's, "I see you." And until you are seen, you are not there. The response is, "I am here," is how it translates.

Michelle Bond (16:30)
Hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (16:51)
And so what I find is that leaders and followers, who are such an important part of the mix, when followers feel seen by their leaders and then the tribal languages of South Africa, you are usually greeted by the elder or the senior. That was my experience. Did you see that also, Michelle?

Michelle Bond (17:13)
That you're greeted by the elder?

Joanne Lakomski (17:15)
Yes, that they are kind of the initiator of engagement. Okay. Yeah. And so.

Michelle Bond (17:17)
Yes, yes. Yeah. Everyone's following the lead of that person, whoever it is. And it's not always the same person, but it's whoever in that scenario is, is in that role.

Joanne Lakomski (17:28)
Yes. And so if your leader is not seeing you, and so I found that leaders who were able to authentically see their employees, the people that worked with them and for them, that those people being seen made a difference. And so then back to the idea of covering and leaders doing that. When leaders, just like any human, I guess, are hooked and very engaged in what the

purpose of the organization is, when they can own the purpose also, then their need to not be covered all the time is solid because it's aligned with what their purpose is. And so they're organizationally solid with what the organization is trying to do. I have to say I haven't seen it happen very often.

Michelle Bond (18:07)
Hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (18:19)
That people, they leave it at home to some degree as a self-protection, including the leaders.

I know that's not very uplifting, sorry.

Michelle Bond (18:32)
No, I know. It's a conversation. but that has been my experience. And, and certainly for very small businesses, like, you know, a few people, that's really tough. And because those roles aren't fully formed, it requires a fluidity that everyone needs to be.

to dance.

Joanne Lakomski (18:52)
Well, and I'll take us back to where we started to some degree because recognizing in the workplace that attachment is suffering, be very, very thoughtful about what you attach to in the workplace. If I'm attached to in this part of my life, earning that money through this kind of effort, I'm good with that. If my effort, if I want a different, if I am attached to something beyond that.

Michelle Bond (19:14)
Hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (19:20)
I need to be more choiceful or prepared to suffer.

Michelle Bond (19:22)
Yeah, it's a good reminder.

Joanne Lakomski (19:40)
I started reading Oprah and some man who studies happiness out of Harvard wrote a book and that happiness is kind of a distance. It's not a place. It's a momentary event.

Michelle Bond (19:45)
Mm.

Joanne Lakomski (19:53)
and then you keep, you do some other things and then maybe you're happy again. So it's a target. "I'm going to be happy when I'm doing this in my job." Yeah.

Michelle Bond (20:00)
Right. It's not a constant state that you reach for any guaranteed amount of time.

Joanne Lakomski (20:06)
Yeah,

And that then flow, which someone mentioned to me earlier, the ability to be situationally in a system where you're not happy, you can still get to a place where you are engaged. You are doing the suffering of learning, perhaps, of having an experience that is not as comfortable as sitting on the couch reading your book would be.

But having the experience where you're engaged in the world with uncertainty and able to deal with it.

Michelle Bond (20:42)
Well, I brought up the idea of flow. said to Joan when we were prepping because that, know, I have a, I don't know if this is right, you know, your memory question, maybe I'm mashing experiences together, but I have this very clear memory of one of these said impromptu facilitated conversations that you were giving where you were, you know, there you talked about Johari's window, which is a concept that, you know, we've seen a lot, but this idea, like for the first time in my life, this idea of being in flow.

Joanne Lakomski (20:50)
Yes.

Michelle Bond (21:12)
As it as it related to the work that you're doing and I think about that a lot especially as you know every time I have a big transition it's like what what is what is being in flow what does that mean at this time in life but yeah I was wondering if there was more to it that I don't remember like that's my main takeaway, but how it's defined and how it I seem to remember there being certain elements of it that have to be in some kind of alignment, but

Joanne Lakomski (21:23)
Nice.

Michelle Bond (21:40)
I don't know, guess I'm asking you to lecture. don't know. Yeah, yeah, I know. We could have, there is one on here. Yeah.

Joanne Lakomski (21:42)
boy! Is there a whiteboard?

Joan Kanner (21:47)
If I must, twist my arm.

Joanne Lakomski (21:49)
Yeah. Really? Actually, it's one of the early Bevneps is the flow diagram, which was from the work of the way I say his name is probably different than the way his mother said it. But Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who was a Czechoslovakian American in Chicago who taught at UC or someplace up there. died a couple of years ago.

But he recognized that as people go through the world, so if you have your X and Y axis, the X axis is skills and abilities, and the Y axis is challenge, and that the pinnacle corner of that diagram is flow, where you have the skill and ability to meet the challenge. Time passes quickly. You're so engaged with what's going on.

you forget what's going on around you. And then kind of going away from that, you have arousal and control and relaxation on one side of the diagram, which are all kind of positive. And the other side of the diagram is, anxiety, worry, boredom, and apathy. and so what I've used it is to kind of...

Right now I'm working with a client and I'm doing their payroll. And when you think about people who you want to do your payroll, I will never be in the encyclopedia or on Wikipedia or anywhere. I'm a conceptual person. I'm not a numeric person. And so in the diagram, I would be in anxiety and worry because I'm like, gotta do it wrong.

I don't know what I'm doing. I'm making it up as I go along. I'm making changes. It's coming in late. I have to get it and blah, blah, blah. And so in order to get myself to a place where I can do it successfully, I put in controls. So I have a lot of systems that help bring control to a situation that had me in anxiety and worry. And so it's not that I love doing payroll, but I'm able to do it successfully and feel comfortable generally with it.

Michelle Bond (23:54)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (24:03)
And then if you're able to, as you have been doing for the past 20 some years, to frame the questions that come to you in your life and to think, you know, what about this puts me in flow? Or is there a way I can shift the situation, whether it's just how I frame it or specifically shift something physical to get it to be a flow experience? Then you kind of can deal with the things you don't want to deal with.

I'm afraid to use swear words on your podcast that you do, so I'll try to get over that.

Michelle Bond (24:34)
yeah. You know us. It's all about how you want to represent yourself, but don't- I mean, it's not-

Joan Kanner (24:40)
Yeah, it's problematic if you don't. I will add some in if I have to.

Michelle Bond (24:45)
Yeah.

Joanne Lakomski (24:45)
Okay. My mother's downstairs, so I think that's also inhibiting me. So and you know, so in working and hanging out with my mother, I've been here a week and I worry about her. I worry about if this is going to work out. I'm anxious about leaving tomorrow. And so I've tried to put in systems. I'm spending time with her so that the quality time we have, that I'm very present.

Michelle Bond (24:51)
yeah, All good.

Joanne Lakomski (25:13)
So it's a frame thing for me, often.

Michelle Bond (25:18)
Yeah, thank you. I mean, that's why I wanted to follow up because that's, my brain is not wired in the tangible and pragmatic all the time. I mean, it's much more like an emotionally driven person and a nuanced person. And so, you know, my memory was of the, how do you achieve this state of alignment in your skills and your interests and your opportunity?

Joanne Lakomski (25:32)
you

Michelle Bond (25:45)
to get into this flow state. But I think the part about adding in tools to where the elements of that that you're not in control of are mitigated somewhat, where you can still achieve it or whatever the definition is of it for you, right? Which is really what this is about, is what I was wondering. So I appreciate that. And I think for the people who listen to the pod, we have a lot of folks who have found value in

Joanne Lakomski (25:59)
Yes.

Michelle Bond (26:09)
in concepts like that just in every day because they're not things that you're generally talking about in the workplace unless you have a guided retreat and unless you have the extra time. I think something like that is useful for any situation.

Joanne Lakomski (26:12)
Uh-huh.

there.

That's cool. As you said, guided retreat, I know so many of our colleagues in the work world hear guided retreat and roll their eyes. "Oh man, do we really have to do that?" That investing in us as our organization or in the work is hard for people who are very do, do, do. And so bringing the gift of potential to help potentiate them is, yeah.

Michelle Bond (26:53)
Yeah, I love it.

Joanne Lakomski (26:55)
Yes, a little circular in my talking sometimes. There's method to my madness.

Michelle Bond (27:17)
What are some of the, just got me thinking about some of these facilitations that you do. mean, what's is, it's probably too general of a question because you work with all different types of groups and organizations, but I mean, are there some common themes in the ahas that people have or the, what people reflect back to you at the end of these sessions or maybe afterwards?

Joanne Lakomski (27:42)
The reflection that they like being in small groups. There's an organization I'm a part of now called coaching.com during the pandemic. Across the year, each week they had a couple different webinars. And then after the webinars, you had the option to join a one-hour conversation with maybe up to 10 people about what you just heard.

Michelle Bond (27:49)
Mm-hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (28:09)
And I found that model so empowering to take concepts you just heard about and learned about and the designer was speaking them and then to kind of pull them apart and play with them with peers. That so inserting that kind of modeling into situations so that people have a chance to learn from one another, to potentiate off of one another, to get the value of being heard by someone, to practice hearing and listening.

That's kind of what I was getting. So let me see what else. People so, you know, it goes back to Sowabona. "I want to be seen." There's organizations can see people with money, but there are myriad of ways you can see your colleagues without money, listening to them. If, you know, if we're passing in the hall and...

I report to you, Michelle, for example, and I say, "Michelle, I completed that report you wanted. you want to talk about it?" "Oh, good. Put it on my desk," which is a bit deflating for me. And instead, if you said, tell me what you learned," and you give me two minutes, and suddenly you see me, I am there, and I like you.

Michelle Bond (29:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great example.

Joanne Lakomski (29:48)
So one of the things I've been studying use of neuroscience associated with coaching. And that's having a sense of how

Michelle Bond (29:54)
Mm-hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (30:00)
The brain is, our brains are engaging and recognizing that the intelligence of our body comes from the brain, the heart, the gut, as well as there's intelligence in our skin and kind of throughout our body. And so things, when you say you feel something in your gut, it's true. Our brains tend to be slower and more methodical and kind of want to be right. They have kind of a yes/no switch.

Michelle Bond (30:23)
Mmm.

Joanne Lakomski (30:25)
Our guts are fast and emotional and the heart is emotional. And so you are receiving information and putting the pause in place allows you to overcome the frantic response of your gut saying, "Run!" or making the choice to run. To give your brain some time to weigh in, you can also assess, "yes, brain, you're being very parental and I don't need a parent right now. I'm looking for the adult decision."

And so the neuroscience study is helping clients or just helping the world kind of have a better understanding of the complexity going on within us as choices are being made and decisions are made and actions are taken or not. And so I'm finding that that's kind of exciting and giving people opportunities to, give yourself the gift of pause.

Michelle Bond (31:17)
Hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (31:18)
So when you find yourself climbing the energy of anxiety or pissed off-edness or excitement and just doing the inhale, exhale, repeat to kind of engage all the intelligences instead of the one that was kind of getting you to go. So you can make a choice instead of just respond, instead of just salivate. So.

Michelle Bond (31:39)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, I like the, you know, there's certain expressions, right? You take a breath, take a beat, whatever that, you know, are true, but you don't maybe know why they're true. And so understanding how you're giving all these things a chance to catch up is, this is a cool idea. Like, you know, just to, we had that, just, was it, we working on a proposal for something this weekend and we were...

Joanne Lakomski (31:52)
Yes.

Yeah.

Michelle Bond (32:11)
...you know, we're just trying to finish it. And we have, you know, we're so close and then, but we're tired, we're hungry. We've just, you know, this is talk about, this is my worst thing. It's just like, once I get into something, it's like, sure, one more, one more. And then it's like hours have gone by, but, but we were trying to figure out how to position something and we're just like, we just need to sleep on it. And because we had, you know, it was due the next day. So we had the time to do that. And you know, at the time it's like, okay, we've got one.

Joanne Lakomski (32:16)
Thanks.

Yeah.

Michelle Bond (32:40)
We've got one thing that we're leaning towards and we could do it maybe one or two other ways, you know, and the next morning I'm like, "what if we do this..." which is like completely not even part of any of the things we've talked about yet that not only solves for the main thing that we were trying to solve, but solved for, you know, some, some secondary and tertiary things. And so,

Joanne Lakomski (32:54)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (33:04)
You know, that's one of those things that you know intellectually, but you really have to keep reminding yourself and having this positive reinforcement of like this experience that we just had to say, "no, really like actually just allow..." It's like I was saying with this time, you just allow things to kind of unfold. And sometimes that's months and sometimes it's a night's sleep or a walk or whatever.

Joanne Lakomski (33:09)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. Yes,

And in the business world, we also, we think brain is right. We are so brain-centric. And it's limited. I mean, it's very powerful and it does cool things, but it's very limited. And you're getting energy in your heart. You know something's going on there. And we generally deny it in the work world. don't know, generally, in the broader work world.

the emphasis would be on denying it. That's interesting, that doesn't belong in business." Because you're no longer human when you're in business. I'm not sure what you are, but...

Michelle Bond (34:08)
right

Yeah.

Joanne Lakomski (34:12)
This is for manufacturing, that machines are efficient. People are effective. And if you start trying to make your people be efficient, recognize you are mechanizing them. And that's a choice. You know, there will be certain efficiencies that come with that. And you're dehumanizing them.

Joan Kanner (34:32)
I mean, there's no mic to drop because Joanne is wearing her mic, so that'd be kind of weird. But also her mom is napping so back off, Mac! Just consider that to be like, just assume the mic dropped. She dropped a pen for you, okay? But you just take and take and take.

Joanne Lakomski (34:39)
It's right up.

Michelle Bond (34:49)
No, but yeah, I completely agree. And that's been the struggle for a values driven, kind of heart driven business, you know, and not to say that other people don't have hearts or other people don't have values, but it's, it's that I've always defined this as this rub between if you have an MBA, which again, nothing against anybody who has an MBA versus somebody who has a, you know, an actual

Joanne Lakomski (34:54)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bond (35:12)
experience or it's filling a gap that affects them in their personal life or whatever it is. so that's one of those things. not only is it hard to show up and constantly believe in that way of doing things, but it's so easy. What was the term from the first episode of like last season? It was like very easy to gaslight yourself into being like, that's not an important thing. That's not a thing that matters. That's not how decisions are made.

Joanne Lakomski (35:34)
Yes.

Michelle Bond (35:36)
That's not, you're just, you know, you're just not good at business or whatever. Because that's, that's the paradigm that most often is used.

Joanne Lakomski (35:43)
Yeah. Yes.

Joan Kanner (36:04)
Alright guys, we have to talk about this. Joanne, you can't escape this question. Don't pretend that your mom is calling you or a cat's rubbing up against you or any of that shit. It was? What in the world?!

Michelle Bond (36:13)
I'm

Joanne Lakomski (36:13)
That was happening. It's like you're psycho.

Joan Kanner (36:20)
It's me and Miss Cleo, very tight. I have no check kiting here. So when it comes to small business, people may want to work with someone who is an HR professional, not just the Resorceress meaning you, but someone else. So many questions about this process. So is their a specific point that you feel like people should consider beginning that relationship or looking for someone?

Joanne Lakomski (36:45)
Right here. I would say there'd be a lot of questions to ask before, so I think it's individual. When you think small business, what size are you considering?

Joan Kanner (36:57)
I'm thinking anywhere from like, should you consider your first hire to up to like, you know, 10 or 12 people, so nowhere near midsize.

Joanne Lakomski (37:06)
Okay, so, you know, I can't give legal advice because I'm not a lawyer, but I guess I can give weird advice. All right, let me share a learning I had. I was working, you know, the, when was it, like the late 80s, and I was the HR queen of some small company. It was actually 250 people, so mid-size company.

Joan Kanner (37:15)
Yes.

Joanne Lakomski (37:32)
And something was going on and the CEO said, go talk to Sigi, who was the attorney. And I've talked to Sigi and came back and reported to the CEO and said, "well, the, the attorney said, this is what we should do. And so of course we would do it because the attorney said," and the CEO said, "no, they're giving us advice and now we need to make a choice." And so you're riding the wave of risk for everything you do in a business. And

Michelle Bond (37:58)
Mmm.

Joanne Lakomski (38:00)
how you engage with your employees and what your relationship is and how you handle things as a business is being on top of that wave and making choices. And I would say probably the leader and who they are is one of the most significant drivers. If their skill is making amazingly engineered widgets...

Michelle Bond (38:11)
Hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (38:24)
...and they've got a couple people supporting them make that, and it's about engineering and precision, and they don't have a high interest in considering legalities and how to make sure payroll is correct and that stuff, then they might look for something more quickly. But an organization where a leader is attuned to humans, you don't want to ride that wave too long because eventually there'll be trust issues, but kind of know your people.

Michelle Bond (38:54)
Hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (38:54)
Treat them well, get some advice about what does it look like, what are the main focus, I have foci that I must have in order to be in compliance. The metaphor I use is kind of know your sandbox. What are the guardrails I must, what are the musts to be in business? And make sure those musts are in place. And then you probably have a lot of leeway into the how.

Michelle Bond (39:08)
Hmm.

Yeah, that's really great advice. Because even this conversation, right? mean, most people I talk to when you talk about HR and you especially talk about very small micro businesses, really, you you are you're talking about, "Oh, I gotta make sure that these people are W2s, not W9s. And you got to make..." You know, all that stuff or, "I don't have time to recruit or write a job description" or...

Or "I want to make sure that I don't get caught not paying overtime" or whatever those things are, but they're really not the, they're not the human in the "human resources," you know? I have a friend who does this, who's done this for a long time and is grappling with it with a large company because there are, there's the HR side and there's the people development side. And those things at some point split off. And I know.

Joanne Lakomski (40:07)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (40:11)
Your background has kind of been this, what, like I'm doing this with my hands, ebb and flow or like intersectionality of both of those things. So that's, I think that the frame that you've provided about the sandbox is important and different one. And I think most people who are very small businesses are coming to it from either like a passion project or something where, you know, some of that stuff could be even more important.

Joanne Lakomski (40:18)
Yes. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (40:41)
I feel like that's not why people, what we're talking about, it's not the reason why people start a business, which is my first point. And my second one is, even though I'm not an attorney, nor have I played one on any web series or TV, however, I feel like too many people wait, they're not proactive about talking to attorney about intellectual property issues. They're not proactive in talking to someone about potential for HR issues and putting up guardrails. So I think, while no one's asking me for advice...

...you know, this part of my pod, I can say shit, is that don't be reactive. Start talking to people so when you really need someone, you can like go to one or two people. And it's going to cost money. But like, you didn't get into a business to be like the attorney and then also the trash collector and all these. No, just get somebody.

Joanne Lakomski (41:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, again, clarity of purpose. Am I doing what I want to do? Am I doing it well? And what are the things I'm doing because I think I have to? And what's the best way to get those things done?

Michelle Bond (41:32)
Mm-hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (41:43)
Yeah, I know in the Dayton area, there is a human resources organization and part of being a member is twice a year you can have a 30-minute conversation with an employment attorney. And, you know, that's just that level of conversation is interesting. Even before you get to that point, you can probably, through those organizations, find someone in HR, and they'll kind of be able to scope out

what your risk points might be in the way you're operating, answer some basic questions. The complexity when you need an attorney is not hugely early unless you're a very complex business. But just general setting it up is talking to either someone else who started a business or to an HR person who you took out for a drink and had a bev nap in front of you.

Michelle Bond (42:44)
So, we'd like to ask all of our guests what they are proofing on and however you want to interpret that question related to your professional life, personal life. We've talked a lot about it actually in this conversation with just different things, but I would love to know what's ruminating for you.

Joanne Lakomski (43:03)
I, so I've kind of got a couple of storylines going, which one is neuroscience and one is, witches. So I just did buy myself a t-shirt that says 1692, they missed one. Cause I'm kind of getting jazzed by my female power. Yeah. And so I'm, and I'm doing some writing.

Michelle Bond (43:26)
Nice.

Joanne Lakomski (43:32)
So I joined an organization online just gives a little accountability structure to writing one short story a month and they give you a prompt. So, yeah, and so the first one, the first prompt I got was "hysteria," which kind of helped things coalesce for me around this women power thing. So I'm getting my writer on.

Michelle Bond (43:50)
Mm-hmm.

Joanne Lakomski (43:54)
and kind of stepping forward with female power and pondering neuroscience and how to save the world with it.

Michelle Bond (44:05)
I love it

Joanne Lakomski (44:06)
Yeah, so certainly by, let's see if today's Tuesday, maybe next Thursday, I'll have it all wrapped up. Check. Thank you for asking. I like that question.

Michelle Bond (44:12)
Oh good, yeah, that's... of course! Done, done, and done!

Well, Joanne, a treat as always. And thank you so much for being willing to have a random but thoughtful conversation with us. And that's going to be shared with our listeners. And you've dropped so many interesting

insightful things that I think folks will want to take a look at and ponder on. So I'm going to follow up with you after to make sure we've got links to these things when we share the episode. Is there anything else that you would like to say before we

Joanne Lakomski (44:43)
Cool.

You have given me such a wonderful gift, both to spend time with the two of you, and we're going to continue, I believe, after this, so spend time even more. And I don't have lot of opportunities to just engage with people as we have done today, so I appreciate that bigly, because we don't really say it all. So thank you for this gift.

Michelle Bond (44:54)
Yes.

You're very welcome. And it is reciprocated and "mutuated." I look forward to what's that? no. Well, this concept of like, it's not really about reciprocity, but it's about mutuality. You're probably familiar with that. So because everything isn't always balanced and isn't always even but it's about, you know,

Joanne Lakomski (45:26)
Okay, yes, yes.

Michelle Bond (45:33)
that's where I was going. But anyhow, thank you, such a treat. And yeah, let's talk some more soon.

Joanne Lakomski (45:34)
Yeah, very good.

Okay, good. Thank you. Enjoy.

[theme music begins]

Joan Kanner
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme music, Bagels for the Kraken, was written and performed by Thorn Haze. Additional music from Pixabay. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes, disclaimers, and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage dot com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Instagram, threads, and TikTok at Proofing Stage. Visit our Patreon page to support the show and get even more great content. 

I'm your host Joan Kanner. 

Michelle Bond
And I'm your host Michelle Bond. Thanks for listening. 

[theme music ends]

Joan Kanner (46:30)
Hustle equals good. Grind equals bad. Again, hustle good, flow good, "Hustle and Flow," good movie. And I will say it's, it's hard to be an entrepreneur in the hood.

Joanne Lakomski (46:42)
You

Michelle Bond (46:50)
Okay, thank you, Joan, that's it.

Joanne Lakomski (46:52)
Ooo. Ooo.