BONUS: They Burned Women, Not Witches with The Human Resorceress

Tabitha? Cute, but don't mess. 

Endora? Fierce.

Sabrina? Work.

Joanne Lakomski? Um, legend.

We're here with some new, free bonus content to start off 2025. Our recording with Joanne Lakomski, The Human Resorceress, was particularly content-rich and timely as we reflect on this past year while priming us for the new one.

Hey, if you're one of our Proofing Stage+ Patreon subscribers, this is your second bonus with Joanne. Just a little plug for supporting us in that way. Ahem... 

This bonus content highlights themes that we couldn't fit into our main episode with Joanne. Wanna know one? All right. Let me give you a hint.

There are so many things we find irritating that people regularly do. One is using the word "witch" to sanitize what they really want to call someone - "bitch." Yes, it's annoying that they're unnecessarily pulling a punch. But for us, it's also about mislabeling someone as a "witch." Rude. 

Don't be a Derwood! Treat yourself by listening to this bonus episode.

While we're at it - shout out to the Gladys Kravitzs in your life!

Connect with Joanne:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joanne-lakomski/

humanresorceress.org

Links:

Axiology

Robert Hartman 

Hierophant


Credits:
Theme Music by Thorn Haze

Additional music: 魔女 witch by nojisuma (via Pixabay)

Podcast Cover Art by Lisa Orye

Produced by Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

Find more at proofingstage.com
Follow us on Instagram and Threads @proofingstage

Join Proofing Stage+ to support us supporting you, AND access new bonus content in-between episodes!

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Transcript

[theme music]

Joan Kanner
Joan here!
With some new, free bonus content to start off 2025.
Our recording with Joanne Lakomski, The Human Resorceress, was particularly content-rich and timely as we reflect on this past year while priming us for the new one.
Hey, if you're one of our Patreon subscribers, this is your second bonus with Joanne. Just a little plug for supporting us in that way.
Ahem... 
This second of our two bonuses with Joanne highlights themes that we couldn't fit into our main episode with her. Wanna know one? All right. Let me give you a hint.

There are so many things I find irritating that people regularly do. One is using the word "witch" to sanitize what they really want to call someone - "bitch." Yes, it's annoying that they're unnecessarily pulling a punch. But for me, it's also about mislabeling someone as a "witch." 
Rude. 

[musical interlude]

Joan Kanner (01:21)
I was going to say, Joanne, this is going back a little bit. I had two things, we did not prep for this call, which is obvious, but yeah, you're like, no, no, no, just wing it. So two things, one recently, an acquaintance mentioned that he and his family went to Salem, Massachusetts and there was a shirt...

Joanne Lakomski (01:32)
I don't know what it would look like, so...

Joan Kanner (01:47)
that many people were wearing that stated, "They burned women, not witches." "They burned women, not witches." Because I already had a note in here about you and saying like, "do you identify as Resorceress or necromancer or witch?" Well, apparently it's, it might be all three.

Joanne Lakomski (02:07)
Yes, yes, probably not necromancer.

It was a woman in my grad school cohort, her religious beliefs were significantly different than mine and much more evangelical. And I would read people's tarot cards, and she said that I was a witch. And I laughed at the time, but it occurred to me she would burn me. It was very striking.

So, yay.

Joan Kanner (02:46)
And there seems to be bit of hypocrisy about that when it comes to certain people of certain groups. I mean, you could be in community, you can try to talk to you to understand more and vice versa. She could just simply have a graciousness or just a politeness, which is also another thing. But going back to your thing about the gut, your gut knew she would have done that if that were legal.

Joanne Lakomski (03:07)
Yes.

Yeah.

Michelle Bond (03:10)
Okay.

Joanne Lakomski (03:11)
And would have thought it was best for me in the world. There would have been righteousness with it. So, yeah.

Michelle Bond (03:17)
Yeah, yeah,

that's the...

One, two, punch.

Joanne Lakomski (03:24)
But I recognize in myself when I feel righteous, that's a good sign for me to kind of pause and think, "I'm going to judgment, not curiosity here."

Michelle Bond (03:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I mean I said it jokingly in regard to, you know, the events of the last week or so, but it has really made, you know...

There's a, as much as you try to enter, as much as I try to enter situations with openness and interest and try to make an effort at consuming different types of information from different sources and all that kind of stuff, there is still a very sharp shift in the way that I feel out in the world interacting with people.

Because you're just making no assumptions. You're not reading, I'm not reading body language or comments or things any kind of way to make me feel more comfortable or less comfortable. And while being less comfortable is not a great feeling, it's also I think an important, I think there's something to learn from that. I haven't figured out, you know, but just that,

The idea that really, wow, like there are no categories, there are no buckets for specific people and specific thoughts and specific things. I don't care how many there are and how nuanced they are. Like they're just, you just do not know anything. well, it's hard to maneuver in the world without some sort of directional north. You know, I think just reinforcing that idea that even if it's north, it's not right.

You need to go with whatever you can at any given moment to make the best decisions and do the least amount of harm, but doesn't mean it's right.

Joanne Lakomski (05:17)
I don't know if you remember when we were at the restaurant last year or whenever that was. I talked to you, I shared axiology with you and I was dazzled because you got it right away. And it took me a long time. So axiology is the study of value. And there is yet another now deceased white German guy. They're everywhere. It's interesting, you know, when you think about...

Joan Kanner (05:44)
Collect them all.

Joanne Lakomski (05:47)
the kind of energy and learning that came out of the fascist era of the people who left Germany as fascism was developing. They had some, you know, Jung and Freud and Robert Hartman. And so he numerically established a hierarchy of value and organizations and people will talk about, you know, "what are your values?" And they'll say, "integrity." Well, isn't that everyone's value? And so I...

Through this I've learned that for me values are just beliefs. Beliefs are choices. What do I believe is important? And that's how many people consider value. And then for me value is, it's either has value or does not have value. So it becomes, it either meets its purpose or it's not meeting its purpose. So when it meets its purpose it brings value.

And so having clarity of purpose helps you understand "does this have value?" And then within that realm of axiology, they recognize their systemic value, ideas and philosophies. Then there's thing value, extrinsic value. So we go from a law to a car. And then there's kind of life intrinsic value as the most valuable, but all are important.

And I find we tend to, I was very hung up on thinking, "ideas, they're the most powerful thing." Well, because they're just nothing. They're just two-dimensional, sit there, unless they're acted upon, they're not really bringing value. They're just a starting point. And so to get the value, it has to be valuable into the world. So that helps me when I think about the world is suffering. And I think people,

are looking for something about value. And I want to also, I want to talk to people and get beyond the tit for tat kind of pissing contests and get to trying to understand. "Help me, explain to me." And I think many people get kind of caught up and they can't, but.

I am lecturing a lot, sorry.

you also go so

Michelle Bond (08:09)
No, no, not at all.

but, no, totally. And, I think that's the biggest thing. It's like, "well, I thought this person, yeah, I thought we cared about the same things." And it's like, well,

we do but how we demonstrate that caring is is different or where the priority of those things may not be in the same order but I think it's all I mean I, I think it's like it's just I, I you cannot just say like "oh, we don't care about the same things and you're a terrible person" because clearly these are people who have

Joanne Lakomski (08:27)
Yeah.

there.

Michelle Bond (08:49)
loving relationships in their lives and try to be good people on a regular basis and all that stuff and same thing you know on the other on our side but like it doesn't look the same and why doesn't it look the same that's that I'm with you it like that's what I want to understand and sure there's all kinds of who's paying attention who's not who informed like okay there's all of that

Joanne Lakomski (09:06)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle Bond (09:13)
But it's really more just like, well, no, like if you just look at it as behaviors, then what motivates you to behave one way at one time and a different way at a different time?

Joanne Lakomski (09:18)
Mm-hmm.

[musical interlude]

Joan Kanner
It's not uncommon for books, movies and TV to 
suspend the rules of science to make room for the rules of magic.
But instead, what if we accepted the rules of magic 
and had them coexist with the rules of science?
What a rich life that would be... 
That said, this next segment defies the rules of good taste. 
Enjoy!

Joan Kanner (10:04)
And I'll have the last question, Michelle. It's going to blow everyone's it's going to be like, "What? How can Joan? How can Joan know this to ask?" Go on.

Michelle Bond (10:07)
Okay.

Joanne Lakomski (10:12)
And then I'm going to have questions for you. So, ha!

Michelle Bond (10:12)
But

That's what,

my God, so we're getting on and Joan's like, "I know, I know Joanne's probably gonna want to turn the table." So I'm ready for that.

Joanne Lakomski (10:22)
Cool.

Michelle Bond (10:24)
So we can

it's fine with me. I don't know how you felt about that, but you're the one who has to edit it.

Joanne Lakomski (10:26)
You all make the call.

Joan Kanner (10:30)
A little gassy. A little

Joanne Lakomski (10:32)
We.

Joan Kanner (10:32)
gassy about that, but I'll deal.

Joanne Lakomski (10:35)
Interesting word choice.

Joan Kanner (10:37)
Joanne, Joanne, I gotta ask you this. Are you the next Golden Bachelorette?

Joanne Lakomski (10:43)
I have a vague understanding of what that question means.

Michelle Bond (10:46)
That'd be amazing.

Joan Kanner (10:50)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Joanne Lakomski (10:54)
Really?

Michelle Bond (10:55)
You're not glued to it every week like we are?

Joanne Lakomski (10:57)
No. Tell me, it, what's the, so I think my sister told me there was a Golden Bachelor version. Is this the?

Michelle Bond (11:04)
Yeah, exactly. So this season is the it's the woman so Bachelorette and then she there's so many guys that she's vetting and trying to figure out if any of them are you know her match for the next chapter of her life.

Joanne Lakomski (11:08)
Okay.

huh.

Joan Kanner (11:18)
It's doing well

in ratings and my only assumption is that you were the next one.

Joanne Lakomski (11:23)
I'm curious as to why you would have thought that. How did you come to that assumption?

Joan Kanner (11:28)
I I just think that you're a woman of mystery and I think you are a catch. And my understanding is that you were still on the prowl and I was just like, who can handle, you know, a couple dozen of person of any gender? That'd be you.

Joanne Lakomski (11:35)
you

Joan Kanner (11:48)
You know what mean? Yeah, like you,

Joanne Lakomski (11:48)
Thank you for that explanation.

Joan Kanner (11:51)
I can see you doing facilitation of the group. You know I mean? So tell me more about like, you'll be the first one with the whiteboard.

Joanne Lakomski (11:57)
Yes, the whiteboard. They'll want to ask me a question. I'm curious, what made you ask that question? Never answer a question.

Michelle Bond (12:06)
with a question.

Joanne Lakomski (12:08)
Yes, yeah. Thank you for asking that.

Joan Kanner (12:13)
Your lack of

commitment, but your dramatic pause at the beginning makes me think the answer is yes.

Joanne Lakomski (12:19)
you'd be disappointed.

Joan Kanner (12:24)
If...

I couldn't watch it every Wednesday live.

Joanne Lakomski (12:29)
hi, hi, hi. Who's running it? What station? Maybe I'll try to watch it. Okay.

Joan Kanner (12:32)
ABC. ABC.

it's based off of the Bachelor and Bachelorette franchises with younger folks. And then it got smart being like, wait, people live past 30. And they were just like, OK.

Joanne Lakomski (12:45)
Who knew? They were very attached to 30.

Joan Kanner (12:46)
Okay.

whatever. mean, that's my guess based on seeing some of the younger folks. But it is on, I believe, 8 Eastern. I typically have to watch it a different day because I am watching Survivor Live, which is at 8 Eastern.

Michelle Bond (12:50)
Yeah.

Joanne Lakomski (12:51)
Yeah. Yeah. And what time is it then?

huh.

And if you were coming from Alpha Centauri and you watched Survivor or one of the bachelor shows, what would you know about the human species?

Joan Kanner (13:15)
you

I from survivor, I would know that they often talk too much. Even when they are purposely agreeing to be starved, there's a lot of talking. So these humans are all enjoy the camera, especially one person really, really likes the camera. And people will do a lot for the same prize money, which has not changed in 20 years. Can we have a moment that inflation never hit the Survivor prize pot?

Joanne Lakomski (13:45)
You

Michelle Bond (13:45)
the reality

TV shows.

Joan Kanner (13:48)
It's been a million dollars for 20 years and no one's like, "that's fucked"? You know what mean? Yeah, it's so reasonable to produce. There's like heart, there's scripting, of course, but like, it's really not that hard, you would think, or it doesn't cost as much as actually having stars. And they have like evolved based on generations, which is neat. And yet the same sexist things play out. That's a thing for another pod, I guess. And the Bachelorette and Bachelor are still very heteronormative. So people are

Joanne Lakomski (13:52)
Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Joan Kanner (14:17)
put as the bachelor, the bachelorette. you're either a titular person, I said titular, you can have a chuckle, Joanne. I know you're holding onto that. Titular! We put the "tit" in titular, Proofing Stage. And if you're that person, you have a couple dozen people that you can choose from to date. You're doing group dates, some individual dates.

Joanne Lakomski (14:26)
Say it once more.

Joan Kanner (14:43)
You choose people with a rose that you give them in a rose ceremony saying that they can move on. And eventually you get engaged and the why that has to happen. Thank goodness this is mostly an audio podcast. Joanne, you're not the upcoming president. You can't just gesticulate in that way. You just can't, it's not for you. Yeah, okay, honey.

Joanne Lakomski (15:00)
You

I have to scratch on my shoulder.

Joan Kanner (15:13)
So that's how I explain to people who are on Alpha Centauri who I hope will come in along with the Lizard People and save us from ourselves.

Joanne Lakomski (15:20)
Okay, because they have all the answers.

Michelle Bond (15:24)
Yeah.

Joan Kanner (15:24)
Yeah, they might be wrong, but they'll have them [the "answers"] for you. "Makhfara nakhtu. Take me with you."

Joanne Lakomski (15:27)
Okay, okay.

[musical interlude]

Joan Kanner
As someone who forages, I say that foraging is kinda witchy, right? 
In fact, there's even a mushroom called "Witches' Butter." It's bright yellow, gelatinous and, yes, edible. In fact, it's one of the few mushrooms that you can eat raw. 
And, once you've finished listening to this bonus episode I strongly encourage you to look up the origin of its name.
Was the presence of this fungus a sign that a spell was cast on your house?
Or was it used to ward off evil spirits?

Michelle Bond (16:22)
Where you at, Joan?

Joan Kanner (16:25)
I was going to stop recording.

Michelle Bond (16:28)
Okay. All right. all right, We can continue offline.

Joan Kanner (16:31)
I allow it. I allow it.

That is fine.

Joanne Lakomski (16:34)
I'm thinking what archetype, what tarot card major arcana archetype is Joan being here? And it was the hierophant, which is kind of the Pope.

Michelle Bond (16:35)
But... Go ahead, Joanne.

Joanne Lakomski (16:50)
Yeah, it's kind of dogma, "yes, you go right ahead where we should be in this mess."

Michelle Bond (17:00)
That's funny. Yeah.

[musical interlude]

Joan Kanner
This has been a bonus episode of the Proofing Stage pod.
If you liked it, please share it with the podcast lovers in your life.
Got an extra minute or two?
Please leave us a review wherever you get your pods.
And if you didn't like it, tell us why
By writing us at proofing stage pod at gmail dot com
Or you could just ghost us
And then we'll never know... 

[theme music]