You Can't Grow by Cutting: The 20/25 Experience

Susan Clayton, Founder of WhitePaws RunMitts 

Better now or better now? Better now? Like many of you, we're entering the new year fine-tuning our vision and calling on our support systems. This includes brilliant business minds like, Susan Clayton, Founder of WhitePaws RunMitts who is hitting her stride while elevating themes for underrepresented founders with candor and joy. 

How can many of these businesses are both over-mentored and under-supported? How can spending money be difficult, and asking questions be threatening? Susan commiserates with Michelle and Joan in the Proofing Stage era, with sharpened perspective and insights. Together they challenge themselves and others, discussing equity, business savvy, permission vs. forgiveness, spending capital, disrupting systems and holding mentors (aka gatekeepers) accountable. 

This episode unboxes a wealth of holiday gifts and reorganizes the way we see ourselves and can operate in the world - demanding more and helping one another along the way. Run with us. 

Segments include:

• Building a Supportive Team and Trusting Relationships
• Importance of Long-Term Strategy, Collaborations and Community
• Need for Practical Support in Business and Impact of Bureaucracy on Small Businesses
• Risk and Growth in Entrepreneurship
• Calling out Bias and Unconscious Obstacles
• Defining Effective Mentorship and Protecting Intellectual Property

Connect with Susan Clayton:

https://runmitts.com/

IG: @whitepaws_runmitts

FB: @whitepawsrunmitts

Blue Sky: @runmitts.bsky.social

Linkedin: @Susan(RunMitts, LLC)Clayton

Links:

More on themes in this episode in S1: EP4, The Myth of Meritocracy/Mentorship, Schmentorship

Scroobious' vendor marketplace

The Johns Hopkins Wilmer Eye Institute

REI Path Ahead Ventures

Episode Sponsor: Trash B Gone

Credits:

Theme Music by Thorn Haze

Additional music: 

Tom Thumb - Feeling the Flow (via Pixabay)

take out the trash by Jacob Field (via Pixabay)

Podcast Cover Art by Lisa Orye

Produced by Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

Find more at proofingstage.com
Follow us on Instagram and Threads @proofingstage

Join Proofing Stage+ to support us supporting you, AND access new bonus content in-between episodes!

See Buzzsprout's Privacy Policy for listener privacy and read our disclaimer here.

Transcript

Susan (00:00)
Probably could have more but I'll send...

Joan Kanner (00:02)
Send me that all that good stuff. Otherwise I was going to say that, Oh, someday, Susan, I don't know when we're gonna get to that place where we really wanna go and we'll walk in the sun. But till then tramps like us, baby, we were born to be entrepreneurs.

Susan (00:02)
Okay.

you

Yeah.

Michelle Bond (00:23)
nice.

[podcast intro begins]

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure.

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kanner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner.

Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories. 

Michelle Bond
Together, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between "Atta girl!" and "I told you so."

[podcast intro ends]


Michelle Bond
Well, welcome, Susan. Thank you so much for joining us.

Susan (02:57)
Thank you for having me. Looking

forward to see what we can come up with to talk about today.

Joan Kanner (03:04)
No, for sure. And I'm hoping some of those prompts were helpful, including how we initially met IRL, as the kids would say.

Susan (03:10)
Yeah, that's

I read over that and I was like, yeah, I remember we were sitting there like complaining about landlords and like, it's like a never ending. I feel like it's never ending with like landlords. It's always something. Like you just, anyway. So.

Michelle Bond (03:31)
So you know Joan, if you've been complaining about landlords sitting there, that's basically, you know Joan very well.

Susan (03:36)
Yeah, it's like a constant. I

feel like it's either you have to have your own space or like, especially if you have a brick and mortar spot or you know, you have to be in like a collective where there's lots of people. So they're catering to so many people that they have to kind of be as cooperative as possible opposed to like one, one tenant per, you know, per space. So.

I'm in a warehouse space now but it's also a different type of business too, where I'm just kind of packaging and boxing and doing like warehouse kind of work. It's different from, you know, when we had the salon where we were, you know, in there every day, like you guys, when you were in the, you know, brick and mortar restaurant space every day, it's like, it's totally, it's a lot different.

Joan Kanner (04:27)
No, for sure. you know, I can kvetch all day about difficulties with landlords, but ultimately it's, you also have to have a solution in mind. And I feel like making sure that the people who want to be able to be property owners or small business people can have a better chance of securing capital when a lot of these grants, unfortunately, support more of the people who own the properties. Like they support rent versus ownership. And I'm dismounting my soapbox effective now.

Susan (04:45)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Michelle Bond (04:58)
But we do want to back up a tiny bit and just let you share with folks a little bit about you and your business. I mean, we met at that Shark Tank event down at Port Covington. I think it was like, I don't know, maybe a year and a half ago now. I would love to hear about your journey and where you're now. And then we can kind of jump off on some of the things I know you and Joan have been lamenting things on LinkedIn and this podcast is really all about

Susan (05:08)
yeah.

Michelle Bond (05:21)
thinking and talking about those kinds of things. So, you we appreciate you joining us for the conversation.

Susan (05:22)
Yeah.

So, well,

we've definitely grown probably since I saw you a year and a half ago. We're getting more recognition. And I think I hadn't started the REI program when I met with you.

I think it's like being a part of the REI, I was in REI stores before that, but now that I'm part of their Path Ahead program, which is promoting BIPOC companies within the outdoor space, I feel like I have a lot more cache. I can use that as like an entrance into other retailers and into other venues, into other endeavors that we're trying to do.

That has really helped. Plus it also gives you like, you know, door openings and warm intros. It's easier to say, "Hey, yeah, I'm part of this program. We're backed by REI." So people are more apt to like take a phone call from you or just call you back. So, that's where we are this year.

I didn't talk about it too much on social media.

But I had like a lot of issues that happened this year and they were not work related. I was like trying to stay within the company and be as, you know, be as productive as I can. We're dealing with like life challenges, which is always, you know, and as small business owners, you all know, it's like a small business owners. don't have that large staff.

That can like take over stuff that like you are pretty much it. You might have like one or two other people, but when it comes to like the day to day life, you have to be it. And this was a tough year personally for me. So it was hard to like get the speed up and get going. But then I hired someone who has been like a rock for me who has like, "What can I do to help?" "How can I help you?"

"Let's try this." "Let's do this." "What do you need?" Just like, you know, like you sometimes you hear people like, "I hired this person and I feel like I'm constantly teaching them stuff. So I feel like I'm just doing it myself." I was like, "I'm teaching them. So, it's basically, I'm doing it twice," opposed to like them just taking the ball and rolling with it and like coming to you like, "Hey, I came up with this idea." "Oh, my God, that's a great idea. Let's go for it." And that's what she's been for me.

Joan Kanner (07:29)
Mm-hmm.

and

Susan (07:44)
So that's helped a lot. This for 2025, she's like, "I've been with you for a year. I know how the business runs. I know what we need to do. Let's refocus some things for 2025 now that we have things personally in place so that 2025 can like, we can hit the ball rolling." So

Michelle Bond (08:03)
That's amazing. No, I mean, and it's real. I mean, it's real. People think about business owners and they think we're all Jeff Bezos, but, you know, having that person that can be your right hand person or understands the context so much where you can then trust decision making and judgment calls and stuff. I feel like that's so much part of it. It's not only like, this is what needs to happen to get it done, but it's like in order to really free

Susan (08:10)
Right!

Yeah.

Michelle Bond (08:30)
you up or to deal with the things which I'm sorry that you know I mean life is life but you know in order to just free you up to to take care of what you need to take care of you need to trust that your people can also just keep things moving and that includes making decisions on a regular basis sometimes.

Susan (08:34)
you

Yeah, yeah. sometimes, and they

make better sometimes... I think sometimes as business owners too, there's a certain mindset where there's like, "I have to make all the decisions. I have to be the boss. I can't learn anything from anybody. I'm teaching everything." Whereas I'm as a mindset, like I'm willing to, I don't know most of the things that are happening in this business. It's like, I mean, I came into this late. I didn't know a lot about manufacturing, so I'm still learning.

But I've got good people around me who know what they're doing and I can trust them. And it took a while to get to that point, but now that I'm there, I feel so much more confident. And even with my manufacturer, I talked to him on Friday and I was like, "I got this thing that's gonna happen. I don't know what to do." And he was like, "20 years ago, I would have said, 'go for it, Susan!'" And he says, "Now, let's be a little bit more cautious." And then it's like, whose manufacturer is gonna say that to you?

Like they're going to be like, "No, do that. Let's just go, you know, I want to make as much money from you as possible. So I'm going to like tell you to do the most." Whereas he's like, "No, I think we should do a safe amount so that you feel comfortable. We feel comfortable and you're not sitting on all this inventory." Like you just don't get that too much in this industry. And I'm glad that I've surrounded myself with people who are looking out to make...

Michelle Bond (09:43)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Susan (10:07)
me successful, them successful, but in a gradual form instead of like this, like, "let's just go gangbusters" or "let me see." Cause he knows that he wants to be able to keep me around. So to keep me around, he has to be as supportive as possible because you know, most of the people that are in my industry are offshore. So to keep it from going offshore, let's, let's make sure that we are successful here.

Michelle Bond (10:31)
Hmm.

Yeah, no, that's so important. We've talked a lot on this show about the long game, you know, and I feel like there's a lot of pressure when you're first starting out, especially from people who are, you know, trying to support you, but of a of a building and growth mindset that sometimes you lose track of, you know, what's the urgency in this right now or like how, you know, kind of that, that idea of, a long game being the thing that

Susan (10:37)
Everyone.

Yeah.

Michelle Bond (11:00)
that can sustain you and like you said, sustain your partners and congratulations to you for finding those folks and surrounding them and building that trust because that's great. And that'll definitely make the odds in your favor.

Susan (11:11)
yes, yes, yeah. Hopefully

it's working out.

I think that's where we were like jumping off point for this was the struggle of getting organizations that say, I mean, and it's no offense to them. They are trying, but sometimes because they are not in the field or they're not in that they're part of an organization. So they don't know about building a business.

You know, and the struggles that we go through. So they'll go like, okay, well, like you said, "I know Andres" and it's like, "well, that's not the person I need. Like this person, do you know them?"

For me, it's like, I don't need you to go like, I need you to find the person that's going to find the answer, not the person that's going to be like, well, let me talk to this person. Let me try this person. I was like, no, I need a person that's going to say "yes" or "no" right away so I can move on. I don't need this like months long of like...

You know, "well, let me get to this person." And then that's the next person. I had that with another retailer and it was like, either go to the head who could say "yes" or "no." And then let's move on. Cause if it's a "no" and I can move on, but this like, "well, I don't know. And let me talk to this person." That's like, we don't have that kind of timeframe. We don't have, you know, we're small. can, we can pivot faster.

Michelle Bond (12:30)
Yes.

Susan (12:52)
We're not in corporate, so we can pivot and not have to like, "it like, okay, that didn't work. Let me go on to the next." And sometimes we don't get those answers that we need because people are trying to help us, but they're not truly helping.

Joan Kanner (13:07)
That's true. I think a lot of these places, when it comes down to it, a lot of them I've interacted with are state-related, no matter what state that we have been in. And these are salaried people, which trust me, I've often missed the times, right? So it's a lot different level of security. And, you know, their performance their KPIs may look very different than what the business owner needs. And no one seems to really want to get into minutiae with us. These are people who like have resources in terms of like time.

Susan (13:19)
Hahaha!

Joan Kanner (13:34)
And again, like they're salaried and not worried about stuff, but they don't move at the speed of business. And unfortunately, when you ask them to do so, at least I have been the recipient of just kind of like an eye roll or frustration or ghosting.

Susan (13:45)
Right, right. I remember

this is like in 2020 and it's like a silly little story, not silly story, but it's like just the idea of this story. This was when COVID first came and you know, couldn't get face masks anywhere. And if you got the paper ones, they were ridiculously expensive. But you know, what they were talking about was

Hey, you can't, like even if you're outside, you should stay six feet away from a person. You should still have a mask on. But getting those masks were like virtually impossible. And I talked to one of my, the time, manufacturer was in New York and she was making these masks, but she was making them out of like fancy fabrics and stuff, because they were matching her fancy gloves.

And you know, people were still getting on the subway and stuff like that. So she wanted gloves and mask and everything for people who were commuting. And I was like, "can you make me something like that but with a sports fabric?" Well, she was able to like go across the street, get the fabric because she's in a garment district. She could get the fabric. And like every day we were like selling masks, like across the world because we could pivot so fast because we didn't have to go up that chain of command.

Michelle Bond (15:00)
Right.

Susan (15:03)
And we didn't have to go to China to get stuff produced because that's what like a lot of sportswear companies are making stuff offshore. So they had to wait for like the pattern to be made and for them to produce it and for them to ship it over here. Whereas mine was coming overnight. It was like, she would send like her sewers. "Susan wants this many colors and this, you know, like 10 colors and she needs this amount. And they would.

They would stamp, they have this machine that just stamped out the pattern. It was like cookie cutters and they would stamp them out. It was one scene. They'd take it home because people weren't home. They weren't in the offices and stuff and at the factories, but they would just come cut the stuff, take it home, sew it up and then ship it out that night. You can't do that in some of these big companies because we can pivot...

Michelle Bond (15:54)
Amazing.

Susan (15:56)
... overnight, whereas they can't. So that's what we're saying. Sometimes it's like, it's got to go through so many different channels to get, you know, to change something. Whereas we can be like, "yeah, let's change it tomorrow."

Michelle Bond (16:12)
Yeah. Yeah. And you need that information or that support in that timeline. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes there's a lot of bureaucracy, not sometimes a lot of times, but also in some of these situations, like even with, you know, small business development centers and stuff, which like everyone is like, that's the first place people send you when you're talking about business support. And to your point, not to like call them out as like they're, they're doing what they think that they should be doing. But when it takes,

Susan (16:12)
you

Michelle Bond (16:41)
two weeks to get a response to a question or when you're trying to figure out like in that case, "oh, can I get free consulting for my taxes?" And you know, now it's November and I'm trying to plan for next year. And usually you have a planning meeting and "oh, no, that's not something we do. Here's somebody who does it." And then you look into that resource and that resource actually doesn't do it. And you go back and then you get, and then there's no response. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, I think people underestimate how much for a very small business

Susan (17:03)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (17:11)
that number one is not helpful, but it can really bog you down because you're chasing your tail for something that's very necessary and time sensitive. And the systems that are set up to provide that are like, again, aren't moving at the same speed at the very least, or they don't have the full breadth of like actually what you're looking for. Well, I'm not looking for a button to file my taxes. I'm looking for someone who can help me view my depreciation schedule and you know, all these other things.

Susan (17:12)
Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny. Like I've

been just like even accounting, how many accountants I went through before I finally got one who actually understood what my company does and how to set it up in QuickBooks, how to, like, I'm at a point now where it's like, I should look at that. Shouldn't I? But they've taken care of so much that I'm like, when we even have our monthly meetings and I look at the stuff and I was like, "it's nothing for me to really do.

I just have to answer a few questions and they take care of everything." Before it was like, "we have to do this" and "no, I don't understand. So don't give me a list of things to do that I don't understand. If you don't know how to explain it to me or you don't know how to do it, I need to move on to the next person who can do it." Just like you were saying, it's like sometimes it's like.

"Well, this, this, this, this..." that's why I'm coming to you. And if you can't do that, or you can't even tell me what I need to do. I remember like years ago, I had this attorney and he was explaining stuff to me and he was like, "well, what do you know?" And I was like, "I don't know anything. said, explain it to me. Like I'm in kindergarten. Don't assume that I..." and I think that's right. It's like, don't ask me to, to understand this stuff and explain it to me so that I can understand it. Like if you can't...

Michelle Bond (18:29)
Yeah, that's why I'm coming to you.

Hey, I'm running a business.

Susan (18:56)
...explain it to me, then I need to move on to somebody who can because I don't want to sit there and be like, that makes absolutely no sense to me. And if I ask a question, you're making me feel like I'm incompetent. It's like, that's not my field. That's yours. You explain it to me and I'll do my stuff. Yeah. I know it's like triggers, triggers,

Michelle Bond (19:37)
We're still fighting this battle. It's like, I was having this conversation actually with somebody unrelated to this topic, but in the vein of professionals in different fields who are tasked with making something happen, but what they're making happen, they actually don't have any lived experience in. And

Susan (19:53)
Right?

Michelle Bond (19:56)
And this is the way of the world. Once you start to see it, you start to see it everywhere. And so even, where we're at right now is like trying to help bridge that as people who have, like you said, your business is different than our business, but we, but this is a piece that we understand. And maybe like my tenacity to find an answer that might help you or you to help me would be different because you understand what the stakes are, you know.

Susan (19:58)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

organizations, like I asked for one organization originally, I was like, we need a.

Well, this was before like Slack and all that stuff was coming up or you know, I was like our little group within that organization, like the business owners, we need a way to communicate to each other to say, "Hey, I got a question. How did you navigate this?" And a lot of them don't have that, that ability. One thing that we do have is for,

for the Path Ahead program, we have a Slack channel and there's different channels within the channel for, and then, you know, somebody's like, "hey, I don't know how to do this. Can somebody..." And somebody will come back within that day and answer that question for you. And I feel like we need more of those opposed to these "experts." We need somebody who's, like you said, they just went through this. They still, the wound is still fresh and they can answer that question.

And if they don't, they're like, "Hey, you know what? think I know a person who can answer that question" opposed to like these organizations with corporate salary people, you said, Joan, who have never lived this experience. We need people who have lived the experience and sometimes tap into that too. So, like anytime somebody asks me a question, I'm like, "I am willing to answer because like my wounds are really fresh." So I'm constantly like.

"This is what I'm going through. This is what I had to go through." But, we also have a WhatsApp, group two. So I think that's what a lot of these, and they don't, they don't recognize that yet. And I think that's one of the things that needs to be set up within these organizations. You know, we have all these like accelerator programs, but then once the accelerator program is ended, then we just kind of drop off the face and we don't.

Michelle Bond (22:06)
Mm-hmm.

Susan (22:17)
We'd have no way of communicating with the people that we were taught with. So it's like, let's stay in touch so that we can, you know, help each other build something.

Michelle Bond (22:24)
Mm-hmm.

Susan (22:27)
Have a friend who they had just gotten into REI and you know, it's like the whole thing of like shipping and packaging and doing all this stuff. It's like, gotta, it's, you gotta teach yourself and once you get it, it's fine. And one of my friends, was like,

Joan Kanner (22:28)
I'm gonna say it.

Susan (22:44)
I can't figure out how to just ship this. I'm like, and I looked at his, the UPS and I was like, this is what you need. Put this on there. And he was like, my God, you saved me so much time because you knew exactly what I needed. You knew the answer. You knew how to, or if you didn't know, you knew how to get the answer and who to contact to get that answer opposed to, you know, like you said,

these it's lag times in the followup of getting the request you know.

Joan Kanner (23:16)
And what's also frustrating as someone who's worked in universities for 15 years, which in case people wonder, it's a long ass fucking time to be in any type of system. But I really kept hitting up against people being worried about liability when they gave an answer. It was always like an "It depends." And it does depend sometimes based on some of the situations that you're at in that world. Again, grants and contracts, but I'm with you, Susan. Just give me an answer. I feel like some of the best information I've gotten has been from peers and

Susan (23:27)
Mm-hmm.

Joan Kanner (23:43)
This is just a really quick plug for Scroobius, which is a pitch-related platform and website with some really good on-demand classes you can take. And they just recently added, but not recent in terms of when we're actually recording relative to when we're launching, right? But Scroobius just added a preferred vendor section where you can recommend a vendor and use those people. So I really think a lot of these folks are really worried about the liability aspect.

Susan (23:57)
haha

Mm-hmm.

Joan Kanner (24:08)
Whereas like they're actually pissing away a lot of grant dollars and they're going to they're liable for funding some of the same property owners and they're liable for making a lot of mistakes, but no one's really following up on that while we have a budget deficit. Come on

Susan (24:20)
Yeah.

That was

Michelle Bond (24:27)
Did you have something to say? It looks like that landed.

Susan (24:27)
it's like more triggers, more triggers.

Michelle Bond (24:31)
Did you have something to say? It looks like that landed.

Susan (24:31)
it's like more triggers, more triggers.

Michelle Bond (24:34)
To me, it also, that's where it of comes back to this, knowledge workforce versus the doing workforce. And there's this elitism built into that, whereas if you're educated, you're making the decisions. And if you're not, then you're just doing the stuff and you must know best if you're edgy, you know, versus people who are actually doing the thing.

And I mean, it's not, really, truly, I don't, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. don't think anybody is intentionally doing this, but this is the way that these systems are structured. And so it makes it very hard to got to float back up the food chain to say, guess what? have a little bit of both. Maybe there's a different way of looking at this or "Hey, you know what? Like those dollars, I know that you're trying to keep slumlords from acquiring properties.

by not letting businesses use them [i.e. grants] to buy stuff, but businesses need to buy stuff to be able to acquire wealth. Otherwise you're just repeating the cycle, you know? And so, I don't know what the answer is, except to keep beating that drum and partnering, like you said, with people who are lateral, who, who share those concerns and maybe you can make some incremental change that way.

Susan (25:38)
I mean, it's

like, I'm, I'm such a serial entrepreneur. So I did have like, talk about like landlords and stuff. I had a couple of rental properties and slowly I got rid of them because it was just getting to be too much. But the last one I had, I had the tenant that had been in there for like forever. And I was, and I worked really hard to make sure that they could buy the property. But the agent that I was talking with, she was like,

"We'll just put them out and put some money into it and sell it for like double." And I was like, "no, that's just..." I said, "my conscience couldn't do that." I said, "these people have been living here for like, it was like 16 years. I'm not gonna put them out so that they have to, know, their rent's gonna like triple, like at least double. They've got to find a place that they can afford."

Whereas if they buy the house, their mortgage, it's probably gonna balance out about the same, but at least they can afford it. And I feel like that's what happens with a lot of landlords. It's like, let me just throw you out so I can get someone new in who can pay me more. And you don't even do anything really substantial to make the place nicer. It's like, "I just, I painted and now I'm gonna triple your rent."

And I feel like across the board, like you said, with landlords, rent for businesses, even just, you know, like renters and commercial reasons, like they're all like the same. It's like, "how much can I gouge you for? How much money can I get out of you?" Opposed to like, "let's make this a equitable situation for everybody."

Michelle Bond (27:36)
One of the other things that I know that you either posted or shared recently, Joan and I were like, "yes, my god, I wish we learned this sooner" was just around that the idea of you can't budget your way to growth, you know, being being very miserly ourselves and really stretching these dollars and bootstrapping and doing all these things. But

realizing at one point that we're still doing that you're in such a scarcity mentality. And you really do need capital infusions to grow.

Susan (28:04)
Yeah. Yeah. It was funny

because I got a investment and I was like, "I don't want to touch it. I don't want to touch it. I don't want to touch it. I'm just going to use the money I'm making, I'm just going to use them." And then one, I don't know what happened. All of a sudden it just clicked and it was you can't grow if you don't spend some money. You have got to pay people. It's time to like make this money work.

Michelle Bond (28:23)
Yeah.

Susan (28:31)
and spend the money. And when I talked to the advisor and she was like, "yes, Susan, you can't grow by cutting." And I was like, damn. And "you're right. You can't." I was so busy thinking I can't spend any money. I don't want to go into debt. I don't want to do this. And I was like, no, that's what people give you. That's what the investors do. They give you money. Sometimes their investment pays off and you become Facebook.

or Twitter or whatever, you can become these big companies or Under Armour or Vuori, I go to the outdoor space and they'll pay off or sometimes it's like, well, that didn't work and they just go onto the next investor or they go onto their next thing, but they're expecting to lose too. That's part of the game.

It's a shared risk. And it's like, at some point, if you don't take the risk and like, go for it, you're not going to like, get the gain at the end. And that's what I was like, you know what, I'm going for it. And that was one of the things that like my, the person that works for me, I was like, "yeah, next year we're going to go for it. We're going to hit the ball rolling. We're going to like hit these big organizations." And, and a lot of it was because of money.

Michelle Bond (29:22)
It's a shared risk, yeah.

Susan (29:49)
Like I was like, "I can't do these licensing deals and I can't do that because it costs so much." But I was like, "you know what? But what will come out of that is so much greater. So, you know, spend the money." And I think that's a lot of us are afraid to, and it's sad that I look at some of my counterparts in this industry and where I hate to be, I hate to say this and it just like.

kills me that I have to say this. I was like, I should have just went to the top, you know, like in one of the situations I was like, I should just went to the top and just said, "Hey..." and dealt with the fallout and deal with that. Ask for forgiveness and not permission and just go to the top. And I probably would have gotten an answer quicker.

Joan Kanner (30:30)
Mm-hmm.

Susan (30:40)
Or I might've gotten a better answer.

But this like, but guys, like I see my friends, the guys who are doing this and they just go for it. They're just like all over the country. They're moving all over the world. They're, they're like, and they just go for it. They're like not taking, you know, they're not, they're not waiting for a "no." They're going in and getting a "yes." And I was like, I'm going to start being like those guys. I'm going to go in and get a "yes." And I'm like, I'm tired of being like,

Michelle Bond (30:55)
I was just gonna say.

Joan Kanner (30:56)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bond (31:04)
Mm-hmm.

Susan (31:08)
you know, okay, being polite, not that I'm not going to be polite, but you know what I mean? I'm just going to go for it. And I'm like, I'm tired of being that person who's like, "no, we can't do this. We got to, you know, we've got to do the chain of command. We've got to ask the right person. We can't just like bulldoze in." It's like, why not? We need to at this point. I'm like, "yeah, let's just bulldoze in and ask the right... and get to that person we need to talk to."

Michelle Bond (31:08)
Mm-hmm.

My gosh, talk about hitting nerves. Joan, do you want to say something?

Susan (31:34)
Hahaha!

Joan Kanner (31:36)
I don't know. I think it's kind of hard to go against. I don't know eons of how women and female identifying people have been treated. And we went everything in this conversation just now from how bootstrapping doesn't let you grow sometimes [if] you're still in that mindset to just "I can't talk like that. People will have a harsh reaction." Eventually people will get over it and the right person will hear you. And you will get that "yes." In the case of Susan one "yes" leads to another "yes..."

Susan (31:59)
Mm-hmm.

Joan Kanner (32:06)
And another "yes" and a "get the fuck out of my way" and another "yes."

Susan (32:07)
Yeah, I think...

We sell ourselves short when we do that. And I've watched my male counterparts who are just like, and I'm like, yeah, but they have this. And I'm like, you know what? I'm tired of being like, well, they have this support and they have that support. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go for it and figure it out. And I think that's what I've kind of figured it out most of the time when I started stuff. But I've been very cautious. Whereas now, I mean, I'm not going to be like reckless.

Michelle Bond (32:23)
right.

Susan (32:37)
but I'm going to be a little bit more aggressive with my approach. Yeah.

Michelle Bond (32:41)
Yeah,

that's an important distinction. mean, like, I remember actually on our very first episode of this, our season one producer was asking us like, because we made the comment about sort of being outside of our lane. And they're like, well, you're doing all of these things. Like, how are you still feeling like you were operating outside of your lane? And I think it's has to do a lot with what you so aptly described. It's like, instead of holding back and saying, we are not we're not seeing a lot of

women in the food space behaving like this, we're kind of modeling this after this, way that you see, you know, men operate in the food space, or just having the audacity to say "we're bigger than we are right now, because that's the way that we see ourselves and in going after all of these things." I think, you know, it's often met with resistance. And it's often met with

you you backslide as a result and you, know, like Joan said, but then you just, you, you do have to be undeterred. And this is what I think we realized even too late. It's like, you have to be undeterred and continue to just trust that you're going to find your person who's going to hear you for what you're saying and what you mean. And it's going to be a good fit. And you're going to be able to do the thing because you're right. Like us sitting back and being like, we always say like being the A students trying to do everything right so that you get.

Your "yeses" doled out to you in perfect portions. Like that's just it's not it's not gonna get you anywhere. It's just not. And for too long, I think we believed, because we were taught that way that that's what you got to do. You got to like do all the right things because the rules apply to us. They don't apply to other people, you know. And once you can kind of shake that off and like I think that idea of being aggressive, but not reckless... Yes, like yes.

Susan (34:05)
No.

All right.

Yeah, that's so

funny. Again, it's like, think having the small group of people that I've had, that I've watched over the past couple of years and watch how the men behave and how the women behave has... And I'm like, I'm going to be more like them because they are out there and they're not afraid to spend the money.

That's the thing. They're not afraid to spend their money. They're like, "I spent it. I'm going to make some more. I'm going to do this. I'm going to get this investor. I'm going to do this crowdfunding. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'm going to travel all over. I'm going to build this community. I'm going to..." And I'm like, I probably can't do it to the level that they're doing it because they're, I'm just not personality-wise, I can't do it.

But there's other ways that I can do it that can be just as sustainable and just as effective as what they're doing.

Michelle Bond (35:25)
I was just gonna say it's ingrained in you differently probably than it's ingrained in them and you have to overcome that. But,

Susan (35:27)
Yeah.

Joan Kanner (35:31)
These dudes are just unburdened by that. And I think that a lot that's coming across in the post, that's why I reached out to you, Susan, not just because I still always like and check in to see what you're up to, what you're putting out there. But I was just like, her tone is different. I am excited. I feel less alone right now. Let's go break some shit.

Susan (35:44)
Yeah. And I think that's,

I'm at that point. And I think, again, having someone who can help support you and like push you into that greatness that you need to be and watching, and then like having these guys actually come to me and ask me questions. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. Why am I being so timid when they're asking me and they're being, they're like,

"Susan, we look at you, see what you're doing" and they joke around. And I'm like, why am I not looking at myself that same way? I'm looking at myself as like the elder who's sitting around telling them all the good things to do, but I'm not actually pushing myself forward in that same vein that I'm pushing them. I'm like, go for it, do it. And you do it too. Go out there and push yourself and you know.

Michelle Bond (36:30)
Mm-hmm.

Susan (36:34)
whatever it takes. I think with turning the page on that, I will help not just me, but other people too. Cause they'll be like, know what? And, and the question is, is like with that other problem that I was having, I was able to get the answer that I needed in one day, opposed to months. Because I was like, I, and I felt bad that I put that out there after

Michelle Bond (36:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Joan Kanner (36:59)
Mm-hmm.

Susan (37:01)
Cause the person who knew who they were and they reached out and I was just like, "no, this is what's happening. We need to find better answers than what you're giving me." And I was able to get to the person who knew what to do, who answered the question so that I know, okay, in order to do this, this is the next step. Let me work on that next step. It's going to cost a shit ton of money, but at least I know where I'm going. And then that can propel me into something different...

Joan Kanner (37:07)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (37:07)
Yeah.

All right.

Joan Kanner (37:27)
Okay.

Susan (37:31)
...opposed to waiting and waiting and "well we can't really do that" or "I don't know let me get to this next person" like no - yes or no.

Michelle Bond (37:42)
Reality is that the risks are different, right? I mean, there's only 2 % of funding going towards women. I think that that mindset of like, "okay, if I crash and burn, I'll just do something else and I'll make more money." I think it's easier to be unburdened in that way if historically, you know, the track record is on your side.

But I think we do need to kind of squeeze it from both sides, right? we need to embody what we want to be and do it differently and recognize that with that risk does come the reward. And we also need to put pressure on these institutions and these individuals to better support women and underrepresented founders because, the risks that are taken even in the loan world, God, you know, we kill ourselves to even get funded,

And this is like good credit, all the the stuff. But then, if you aren't as successful as a woman, how many people are like saddled with that debt versus men who fall forward, and I think these are real things. They're real reasons why we do have this stuff ingrained in us. But it doesn't mean that just continuing to let that

Susan (38:38)
Yeah.

Michelle Bond (38:48)
cadence of things dictate what happens is going to get

us anywhere new. It's not.

Susan (38:52)
What's funny...

So many things I have another friend who has a, company's pretty big, but still not ginormous. And it's a pee pad. so when you go out hiking, you use this instead of toilet paper. And like one of the magazines had the pros and cons of it. It was like, why is there a pro and con of this? and everybody like piled on. We were like, "how dare you do this to this small business company?"

Michelle Bond (39:28)
Wow.

Susan (39:31)
You know, and then, so one was like, "well, I don't understand why we need this." And I was like, if it's not for you, then don't, but to slam this. they would never do that to another company that, you know, don't know, but triggers, triggers, triggers, man.

Michelle Bond (39:31)
Right.

Joan Kanner (39:47)
The people who do

that... it's an episode full of triggers, no warning for this episode. But you just mentioned though, Susan, the whole pro and con thing, when people can't produce something on their own, when they're not creative, they are seriously born to criticize. And in a way that is not fruitful for the person receiving that feedback. That was really just a subconscious way of taking down a female owned business.

Susan (40:07)
Yeah. And it was, and it was like, I mean,

And the amount of support that they got online. I mean, people went like, we just slammed this magazine. We're like, "how dare you do this? This is unconscionable for you to have done this article. It was not necessary. It was like, you could have just done 'why you might need this.' You didn't need to say the pros and cons of it." And like, and it was just, it was horrible. But.

That's what we up against.

Michelle Bond (40:40)
That's like a perfect example to me of like, how do you, explain bias? How do you explain unconscious obstacles especially when you're not somebody who's ever experienced that or you don't know if you've experienced them. That's like a great example. Like on the face of it, you're like, "this is an article. It's meant to inform consumers. And yeah, this is a good idea." And like, you don't think about...

Susan (40:49)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bond (41:03)
...the bias in covering it that way by just doing that, you know, and it's such a clear example of these obstacles that are not necessary. There's plenty of obstacles that are just part of building a business, but something like that is just kind of thrown in there and it's not even necessary. It doesn't serve any purpose. And it's hard to explain that as

Susan (41:04)
Right.

Michelle Bond (41:24)
as an entrepreneur and most times you don't want to bother explaining it. You're just trying to do the work. You're not trying to complain or anything, but those kinds of barriers are real. And I just so appreciate all these examples that you're bringing into the conversation because that's the goal with this [podcast]. It isn't just for us to get on a soapbox and talk about all stuff all the time. It's to say, "look, hey, there's some things you experienced that you don't even know until you see them or you don't even know until you go through them."

Susan (41:44)
Right.

Michelle Bond (41:47)
And as like a lot of listeners and former customers who do vote with their dollar. They do want to support people and they don't understand all these things going on in the background because that's not the type of work that they're in. But so when you see, places open and close or you wonder why, "but there's all this investment into these programs for mentorship and for this and that." You know, the quality of that matters. And I think the quality can really only be...

... defined by the businesses who are participating in it. It can't be defined by, like Joan, you talked about KPIs, by people who don't actually know what kind of help is needed.

Joan Kanner (42:22)
Thank

Susan (42:25)
Yeah. And I... ...think

that one of the things with the one program I'm in, it's like, it's like ongoing support. It's ongoing mentorship. It's ongoing investment. It's ongoing collaboration between the groups so that we can talk to each other and support each other. And I think if you don't have that aspect of these accelerators, these mentorships, it's like, it's.

Nobody's getting anything out of it. And I'm at a point now, was like, no, I'm not doing another one. And it's like, and the only way I'm do it is if I'm guaranteed like a shit ton of money. if I, I mean, I don't even apply for stuff. It's like, that's all you're giving me? No, I'm not even taking my time to apply for that. Like if it's a lot of money, like somebody said something about one program, I was like, "dude, are they giving me any [money]?" "Well, no, they give you all this..." Nah, mm-mm. I'm not spending all that time in life because it's like...

Michelle Bond (43:07)
true.

Joan Kanner (43:19)
Mm-mm.

Susan (43:22)
Unless you're guaranteeing me that you're going to open some doors for me and you're going to be able to, I'm not spending any more time. If you're not opening the doors, I might as well just try to open them by myself.

Michelle Bond (43:34)
Oh, but then you know, you're resistant to feedback and coaching and you're not coachable.

Joan Kanner (43:39)
What did get? Like I'm ungrateful. And I was like, and I got ghosted or something at one point, because I was putting out the lack of logic. Like someone was saying like, it was a local institution that has all kinds of money, magically, from the State of Maryland. And we were having difficulty with our landlords at the time. And he was like, you know, I'll help you guys get money to buy the building." And I was like, "Hey, schmuck..." I didn't call him schmuck. But in my head, I was screaming, "Hey schmuck, look at the property line."

The building we were in was Vatican City within Rome, meaning that the landlords owned the spaces around it, including the parking spaces. I'm just like, "if you want to help me, maybe ask what's helpful versus trying to apply your lack of awareness around this." But I guess I offended him and his fragile ego. I offended him and his fragile ego. So it was just like, "OK, guys, you're on your own."

Susan (44:09)
Mm-hmm.

I did that one time too,

where was like, it had nothing to do with any of this. I was just asking a question and the guy got so offended. I was just like just want to, "I don't understand this. So can you explain it to me why you would, you're taking this money to help this organization, but by you taking that money, you're hurting other organizations. what's the point?" And he was, and he got so offended. And I was like, "I'm sorry. I was just asking a question."

But I didn't understand, was like, "I'm just trying to understand why you're not supporting this program and trying to make that program better, opposed to starting a new program that you think is gonna be better. Whereas why don't we just make the one program better and put some funds into that." He did not like that. That's true, that's true.

Joan Kanner (44:58)
Great.

Michelle Bond (45:18)
Because then you can't put a new name

on it, Susan.

Susan (45:21)
That's true. And you can't make

money from it if it's a public thing and you're trying to make money.

Michelle Bond (45:26)
If it's not new, then you can't, you don't have an opportunity to put your name on it.

[ad for Trash B Gone begins]

Michelle Bond 
Well, Joan, I'm excited because we actually have a real sponsor today that we're going to tee up, taking advantage of speaking with a great local business in Susan Clayton and RunMitts to promote another local Baltimore City business.

Joan Kanner 
Totally cool with that but we must have worked with them for me to feel completely okay about it.

Michelle Bond 
Of course, no doubt. And you know, we're talking about Trash B Gone today.

Joan Kanner (
I love those folks. Yeah, just sometimes want my trash to be gone and You know, I want it done for cheaper than the price of arson

Michelle Bond 
As it's been said in the City Paper many years ago.

Joan Kanner 
The City Paper. Let's focus on John.

Michelle Bond 
RIP. Yeah, okay. It's all about John. So John and his team they show up. They know what they're doing. They're professional. They're kind. They're fun to be around. They get it done. What else do need to know?

Joan Kanner 
is there any magic behind what he does? Because I feel like John just waves his massive arms and things were magically gone.

Michelle Bond 
It's true, whether it's a mess, maybe you've had damage to a property and you just need to haul it away. Maybe you're moving and you have extra stuff. Maybe you have big equipment that you need to be offloaded to the dump. John's got the truck. He's got the team. He has the passion for hauling, dare I say.

So anyway, Trash B Gone they're based in Baltimore. They do work in the surrounding areas. We will include their info in the show notes, Check them out.

[ad for Trash B Gone ends]

Joan Kanner (45:47)
This has been great. I think people need to understand that when it comes to patents and other types of IP protection, like trademarks, it is critical. think working, doing the work that you do, like just as our recipes, were very much protected and different items related to Bottoms Up Bagels and our tagline and all that. I think that people need to understand that not protecting them is much more expensive.

Susan (46:08)
Yes, yes, yes. It is... so...

I think about that. I just like looking at stuff on social media and stuff and people are like coming out with these taglines and I'm like, "did you protect that? Cause somebody's gonna take it from you." If you have a like pretty complex idea, you still should protect it. I think anything that you come up with, you should protect it because there's somebody who's waiting in the wings to steal it...

Michelle Bond (46:21)
Mm.

Susan (46:34)
...and tweak it and change it just enough to say [it's theirs]. You know, like that one creator who was like, what is it? "Very mindful, very demure." And somebody took that and they were like, how do you do that? But it's like, they've been using it for so long and they, that they were able to fight it. But it's like, I don't want to have to go through that. I want to just be like, "this is what I have, leave me alone."

Michelle Bond (46:37)
Mm.

Joan Kanner (46:49)
Mm-hmm.

Susan (47:02)
And you know, and I've come to the, like, this is a great line that I heard from Sarah Blakely who does Spanx. And she has like patents on her stuff. And she said, "the minute somebody starts trying to copy you, that means that you've made it." Because people are following you and they're taking, and I was like, okay, if you're copying me, I've done something good. And then they're tweaking it. They're not...

Joan Kanner (47:09)
And

Susan (47:28)
necessarily doing the exact same thing, but they're tweaking something or they're changing just enough. They're like, "well she did this." But then I'll have people come like, "but I like yours better." And I was like, "yeah, that's because you're supposed to." Yeah.

Michelle Bond (47:42)
Yeah, you still

should protect it. I mean, like people are like, "imitation is the highest form of flattery." yeah, great. But like, yes, trust that you'll have new ideas and innovations, but still, like, I mean, you know, just cover yourself. Yeah.

Susan (47:46)
But protect it first.

Yeah, people, yeah. But she said by the time people started copying her, she

was like, you know, she was making so much money. She was like, "yeah, whatever." I was like, "go ahead, girl." But she became, she's like, it was like, that's like, know, Kleenex or tissues. It's like, you call it Kleenex, you know, if it's, you know, certain things that you're gonna start identifying a certain thing with, like, so you're always calling it Spanx, whether it's a Spanx or not. And then people will.

Michelle Bond (48:02)
Mmm. Yeah, good for her.

Joan Kanner (48:03)
the

Yeah.

Susan (48:20)
So that's what she's trading off of, like, everybody's going to still come to Spanx.

Michelle Bond (48:28)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're like universally known as that, right? No matter what knockoffs there are.

Susan (48:29)
Yeah. Right.

Michelle Bond (48:33)
Asking for a friend, but are you connecting up with Title IX at all? The... Yes!

Susan (48:37)
Yes, yeah, they're great. I'm still with Title IX. I won

their pitch contest a couple years ago. So we're in their stores, in the catalog. And they're like, your business did really well with us. I was like, yes, great. I think next year, I don't know what we're gonna do, but I was thinking about trying to do like a collaboration between one of their other companies and like doing a pattern or something specifically for Title IX.

Joan Kanner (48:43)
Mm-mm-mm.

Michelle Bond (48:54)
Awesome.

Susan (49:05)
But now that I have like the manufacturer and we have all these, you know, we can do stuff. We can do different things and exclusive things for certain companies now. So opposed to that's what we're.

Michelle Bond (49:12)
Mm-hmm.

cool.

Yeah, so it really is customized and they feel like that, you know, it ups the value for sure.

Susan (49:22)
Right. Yeah. So that's what we're, but

yeah, we've been in there for a couple of years now and I, I still love them. This is the funny thing is like within our industry, within like within the outdoor space, it's, it's such a small group of like BIPOC and women-owned companies that we all know each other. And I was like, that's kind of scary that we should, I mean, I guess we should, but we shouldn't.

Michelle Bond (49:31)
Mm.

Susan (49:50)
You know, like, you know, like, like.

Michelle Bond (49:52)
Right, I see what you're saying. Like on the whole landscape, the fact that all the players know each other is good,

Susan (49:55)
And we can call each other opposed to like, I don't know that

person. Like, can you introduce me to that person? It's like, I can just pick up the phone and call that person opposed to, which is like, damn, you know, it's that small of a community, but hopefully, and it's growing, it's growing.

Michelle Bond (50:11)
Yeah, yeah, I guess, you know, leverage it right now, right? But hopefully, like in another 10 years, it's like so vast, you can't do that.

Susan (50:12)
Right, leverage it now.

Michelle Bond (50:21)
Well, my goodness, Susan, this has been a blast. I appreciate your candor. I know we mentioned that we like to ask all of our guests about something that they're proofing on, whether that's a new product line or just kind of the state of women in business or something personal. You know, this podcast is all about like giving some space for those kinds of ideas. So...

I don't know if you have not to put you on the spot.

Susan (50:41)
So working on,

bigger organizations opposed to, so that's what 2025 is, it's like bigger organizations opposed to just retail. like we're doing things with race organizations, so big companies who have multiple races getting into those.

Michelle Bond (51:02)
Mmm.

Susan (51:02)
bigger

organizations like Athletes Helping Athletes. Those kind of we're working on a different mitten for that population, for disabled populations. that, and one last thing, I'm getting eye surgery next week. So my proof will be like, I can see in 2025. I'll be so excited about that. So that's my thing. that's the way I'm at it. I'm all I'm thinking of is like next Tuesday.

Michelle Bond (51:25)
my goodness,

Susan (51:29)
That I can see and I'm going to be like going into 2025. I'm so excited about it. it'll be better than what it is. So that was one of the things that happened over 2024 was the loss of vision in one eye. So like to have it fixed.

Michelle Bond (51:37)
my goodness.

Joan Kanner (51:41)
It's amazing.

Susan (51:48)
I don't know what the word to say is. It's like miraculous, but it's more than that. It's like just being in Maryland and having access to that kind of healthcare is just like game-changing. I think as Marylanders, we take it for granted. But then when something major happens and you can have it fixed and you see how it's like, this is.

Michelle Bond (51:55)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Susan (52:12)
I can go into another story about that. We will end this in there, because I have more stories.

Joan Kanner (52:16)
Yeah, yeah, I I was to say if anyone who is not following Susan already on LinkedIn, do so because her story about her being at Wilmer Eye Center that she posted about and initially came up made cold-hearted Joan Kanner cry. It was really an incredible story. And I agree with you some of the best care you'll ever get in the State of Maryland. And I'm not bullshitting because I live here.

Michelle Bond (52:17)
haha

Susan (52:31)
you

Yeah, I know.

You've got a great state here.

Michelle Bond (52:44)
Yeah.

Well, wow, thank you for sharing all of that. And congratulations, we are sending you all kinds of good energy for that procedure. You can't get much more metaphorical than vision and sight and perspective analogies when it comes to life, much less business. you know, we'll certainly be in touch before

Susan (52:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Michelle Bond (53:06)
Thanks for giving us so much time. This was a great conversation and we really wish you all the best.

Susan (53:09)
All right, thank you so much.

[update]

Joan Kanner
Joan here with an update. Because there's no need to keep you in suspense.
Since we recorded this episode, we reached out to Susan about the outcome of her eye surgery. 
And, she said her surgery recovery is going well.
Now that's some good news to start off the new year!

[theme music begins]

Joan Kanner
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme music, Bagels for the Kraken, was written and performed by Thorn Haze. Additional music from Pixabay. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes, disclaimers, and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage dot com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Instagram, threads, and TikTok at Proofing Stage. Visit our Patreon page to support the show and get even more great content. 

I'm your host Joan Kanner. 

Michelle Bond
And I'm your host Michelle Bond. Thanks for listening. 

[theme music ends]

Joan Kanner
My vote is for like RunMitts by Freezy Freakies. Anybody get that reference? Anyone who's Gen X?

Susan (54:22)
No, no,

Michelle Bond (54:23)
yeah!

Susan (54:24)
no.

Michelle Bond (54:24)
Do you remember those Susan? Freezy Freakies? I don't know. I don't want to age anybody. But they were when we were kids they were they were these mittens that in the cold like changed the picture changed.

Joan Kanner (54:32)
go there.

Susan (54:38)
god, now I don't remember those.

Michelle Bond (54:41)
They're like, what, 80s Joan, would you say?

Joan Kanner (54:45)
They have had a resurgence, and they're very whimsical.

Michelle Bond (54:47)
have they? Okay, they would

like change color or change image. Yeah.

Susan (54:49)
that's so funny, that's so funny. It's like when it's cold. Might have to look into that, but anyway.

Michelle Bond (54:54)
Yeah