Panning for Feedback Gold: A Strategy Bonanza

Marie Silverstrim, User Experience (UX) Designer

Whether you are observing actions or directly asking, your customers and clients are telling you something. Understanding not only what that is but the why behind it... well, that's what gets you to the good stuff.

And, while it's always a good time to make sure your business goals are aligned with customer needs, Q1 of 2025 continues to remind us that the behaviors we use to understand these needs might not mean what we think they do, or what they once did. Just as possible, new and wonderful opportunities might emerge from this disruption. 

As we consider ways to understand existing customers and reach new ones during periods of uncertainty, our guide is Marie Silverstrim, a UX designer who is a master at breaking down concepts and delivering practical advice that is immediately actionable. 

Together with Joan Kanner's love of all things survey and Michelle Bond's contextualization of business in the current moment, we wrap up Proofing Stage's third season with an honest-to-goodness bonanza of tools and anecdotes to help you meet your moment.

E.g.:

• Good design often goes unnoticed, making it feel invisible
• Feedback from users is essential for improving products and services
• Surveys and direct conversations can yield valuable insights
• Stakeholder opinions can differ from user needs; balance is key
• Iterative design allows for continuous improvement and adaptation
• The real 'why' behind user feedback is essential for growth

Links

Classic UX 101 books:

Don't Make Me Think by Steve Krug

The Design of Everyday Things by Don Norman

Other books:

Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself by Nedra Glover Tawwab

Burnout by Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski

Glossary:

• Institutional Review Board (IRB)
• Likert scale
• Personally identifiable information (PII)
• Poll

The following UX terms may be found here:

• Affordances
• Minimum viable product (MVP)
• Qualitative
• Quantitative
• Focus groups
• Survey
• agile UX
• A/B testing

Credits:

Theme Music by Thorn Haze

Additional music by Come On Boy by MondayHopes

Podcast Cover Art by Lisa Orye

Produced by Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

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Transcript

Joan Kanner (00:00)
So besides being letters, Marie, when you put "U" and "X" together, what do they mean in your mind?

Marie Silverstrim (00:06)
Like the user experience? Is that what you're trying to get at there? Or, yeah, okay. So yeah, like.

Joan Kanner (00:10)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is

is not a Valentine. We've passed that - this is a put you and I together.

Marie Silverstrim (00:17)
As like

"X" is the unknown variable? no. Yeah, like it's funny because like user experience, the "X" is like not the first letter. So it's always very awkward as an acronym, which is ironic, right? Given that it's user experience and then we pick a like crap acronym. But...

Michelle Bond (00:36)
Yeah.

never thought about that.

Marie Silverstrim (00:39)
Yeah, so you write enough presentations out and you're like, capital U, S-E-R, lowercase E, capital X to try and justify your UX acronym and you're like, this is lame. And then Microsoft yells at you. Yeah, anyhow.

[podcast intro begins]

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure.

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kanner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner.

Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories. 

Michelle Bond
Together, we have a lot to offer, and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between "Atta girl!" and "I told you so."

[podcast intro ends]

Joan Kanner (00:00)
If you don't want to know how bad or good something is, don't ask. Moreover, don't write about it, take photos, or do a voice memo. Keep that curtain closed, the blinds drawn, and distract others from seeing what's really going on.

You could also make up some stats, put them out there, and maybe folks won't question their validity.

And while doing all that is an option for some, you may want to get a handle on the data that could help inform your next business moves or other life decisions. With that in mind, today's guest is Marie Silverstrim.

Marie is a User Experience (UX) designer dedicated to making lives better and websites less annoying since 2013.

Prior to that, she did much of the same, but without knowing there was an official career for doing so. Marie earned her master's degree in human-centered computing from the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. And now, on with the show.

Marie Silverstrim
But user experience. basically, in the very...

simplest terms, is an annoying definition, is like, what does the user experience? So everything from I sit down, I open the website, like the moment I type my URL, like is it a URL that I remember or is it something I have to go and like, you know, squint at and type in every exact letter just so. Or from a physical world, is the door a handle that you try to pull on when it's a push handle?

that's going to annoy me. And probably the best slash worst thing about being a user experience person is that you then know that all these things can be designed better and it's not your fault. So instead of just being like, "whoopsie, I pushed wrong when I should have pulled" or whatever, you are like annoyed at the people who did it wrong. You're like, "this is your fault. I'm having a bad day now because of you." So it's a little judgy. Makes you judgy.

Michelle Bond (04:16)
I mean, as do many things, you know, but it's like the classic example of I'm sure once you see it, you see it everywhere.

Marie Silverstrim (04:18)
Yeah, well.

Yeah, like the number of push doors that have a handle. And there's like technical words for all this, like all the like user experiencey stuff that's like, it's affordances and blah, But like, you don't have to know that. Like nobody needs to know that word to know that if there is something that like your handle on your coffee cup, a handle on a door, you grasp that with your hand and the instinct is to pull. You don't push that. You don't push the drawers into the cupboard further. You pull that stuff out.

and so when you put a pull handle on a push door it is rude. I don't care if it looks aesthetically nice it is rude.

Joan Kanner (05:03)
I feel like when things go right, it's almost like again when pest management goes correctly, no one thinks about it. It's not a problem.

Marie Silverstrim (05:08)
Hmm. Yeah, it's invisible.

Yeah, the best designs are ones you had no idea anybody did, and they also take the longest. If it's invisible, like somebody put some major effort into that.

Michelle Bond (05:22)
The first UX book I ever read was when I was doing work with AmeriCorps and we were designing the Vista Campus. there was another contractor that we were working with who was like insistent on everyone reading this book called Don't Make Me Think. And it was about designing websites, per your point. It's like, how do you make something? Of course, like I worked for the place that a place at the time that was much more like form over function. So.

Marie Silverstrim (05:38)
Mm. Yeah.

Mmm.

Michelle Bond (05:51)
that went out the window, but it was a pretty, but it was really eye-opening for me. And, and in terms of how things are designed and even just like thinking about that, cause it wasn't part of my world at all.

Marie Silverstrim (05:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it's funny that you say the form and the function, because ideally you have both, right? It's not only a handle that's meant to be pulled, but it's an aesthetically pleasing handle that fits the size of your hand and also is a pretty shade of blue or whatever.

Michelle Bond (06:07)
Of course, yeah.

Well I want to back up a tiny bit and Joan ask you to tell us why we're here. This was a vision I will say that hearkens back what to last season maybe to have Marie join us. So yeah what's going on in that mind of yours?

Marie Silverstrim (06:23)
the world.

Joan Kanner (06:34)
I was going to say in Season 2 of Proofing Stage, we had Sue Ellsworth on and it was the "In Service of Food Businesses" episode. And Sue and I just briefly touched on survey work and focus groups and how that's not necessarily for large corporations. It can actually help small businesses. And that's one of our user personas when it comes to the pod itself. And we named drop Marie and I thought was incumbent upon us to see if she could help us wrap up Season 3

in a way that was meaningful for everybody. Even though we're wrapping up Season 3, for a lot of people who own a business or are contemplating it, we're still in quarter one. So I feel like there's a way to kind of figure out these strategies now to be able to lay out the next several months.

Marie Silverstrim (07:17)
Yeah, for sure. like change is inevitable. So if you're like, "I did something wrong," like then fix it now. Or you just notice, because so much of that, like you put thought in and you think you do it right. And then you realize like, the, is such a simple, basic one, but you have potlucks, right? Inevitably people put all the silverware and napkins at the beginning of the thing. They do their dishes and they put the silverware with the dishes, because obviously those go together.

But then you have to carry your silverware all through the line, like while you're trying to like scoop out these various things and whatever, like it's such a silly thing, but like, what if your silverware was at the end? And that's something that maybe you don't notice the first couple of times, but you're like, wow, people are holding more stuff in their hands than they need to. Or I see people putting silverware in their pockets. Like, why are they carrying it as much like, gosh, that seems hard. Let's, let's change it. And like, to your point Joan, about like it's early in.

Michelle Bond (07:56)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (08:14)
you the year like this is a good time to like stop and like watch because people lie and like if you ask people like just are inherent like let's be you know polite and you're like is there anything we could do better they'd be like "no it's great" because they don't even know but if you watch them they're like they're sticking their silverware in their pocket while they're carrying stuff around because they literally only have two hands but they're carrying things like hmm like all right well where else can we put the silverware and you're like okay at the end of the line then they don't carry it as much

Well, could we put it on the tables? Because then they don't have to carry it at all. But then you're like, all right, does that make sense? Are they going to trust the cleanliness if they didn't pick it up themselves? So this is just where you put that little time in and you try it and you notice like, hmm, we put it on the tables, but that went badly because people were sneezing on the forks. That's gross. So, you know, there's not like a right answer, which is actually...

It really relieves you of a lot of the pressure because just make your best guess and then change it if it doesn't work.

Joan Kanner (09:18)
In Marie's

scenario, by the way, there is silverware for the actual putting stuff on your plate. So you wouldn't need that silverware to be very clear. That's how was picturing it.

Marie Silverstrim (09:24)
yeah. No, no, the serving

ladles are still totally in use. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (09:29)
and you put them back and there's a little rest for you knowing where to put them back.

Michelle Bond (09:30)
Yeah.

Joan Kanner (09:34)
I think one thing that people will know right away, listener wise, you don't need me to tell you this, but I'm gonna state the obvious, which is also, I think, a theme of today, is that Marie is really good at working with adult learners. So there's gonna be lot of analogies and metaphor. Some similes, some similes maybe using "like" and "as."

Marie Silverstrim (09:39)
out there.

Michelle Bond (09:48)
Amazing.

Marie Silverstrim (09:51)
Yeah, I don't actually differentiate too much. I just randomly have a picture in my brain and then it comes out of my mouth and you get what you get.

Michelle Bond (10:00)
But I love what you were just saying in the last one because it's so much of that is applicable to whether people are starting a business, thinking about starting a business in a leadership position. I mean, we're at a time that, you know, I mean, there's always uncertainty, right? But like, really people don't know what's going to happen. And so it is the time to be when you feel like you can't necessarily do anything or you don't have control. I think some of the things that you're talking about...

... can be very productive ways to spend your time, whether it's observing how your customers or your team is behaving and what they need, not only in maybe like a moment of a pinch point, but as you're thinking about, okay, I might have to pivot, I might have to like roll out a new product, I might have to start a new initiative, we might have to like merge this team and do this other thing. I think like the principles of the stuff that you do and your experience

is one of the reasons why we're excited about the timing of this, because I think it can be really useful for people to, you know, put something in place right now, even if, as you say, it's just like observing, you know what, I'm going to just like take a couple of days this week to, if you're a retail, like see, see what my watch my customers move around the store. know, it's February tends to be a slower time for those types of businesses too. So like, it's a good time to be thinking about things that are simple. And I love like the pressure taken out of it by just saying like...

You know, there's no, it's about iteration, which is also what small businesses do. It's like they iterate, they try something, they get feedback, they examine it. They say, all right, I'm going to tweak it this way. Did that work? Okay. That's a little better, but not quite. Or no, that didn't work at all. Let me do this other thing.

Marie Silverstrim (11:40)
And that's exactly it, Michelle. Even something as simple as: this works in February, because it's winter and people are wearing bulky jackets and getting hot beverages might not be the right flow in the summer when people don't have jackets that they're trying to either they want to sit down and rest or they're, know, just it's a different, something as simple as that. if you're in, I was in New York City recently and I had a little time to kill in Penn Station and I was like...

It's such a simple thing and it annoyed me so much. I had my suitcase, I'm in New York City, and they're like, "here's your drink - ready." I'm by myself because I'm waiting for my friend. I'm like, do I roll my suitcase the 20 feet over to the counter to pick up my drink? And it's not too far, right? Like it's 20 feet. You can totally see your suitcase, but you're like, I'm in the train station in York City. I'm not leaving my suitcase alone. But I also had scored a really good seat that I didn't want to lose. And so like if I move my suitcase, I lose my seat.

But I want my drink. And I like really like, was like paralyzed for a moment of what do I do? And like, so I of course, like put my suitcase like, so it was less like snaggable. Like I kind of hit it under the seat so you couldn't quickly do it and like scurried like a little like rodent over to get, grab my drink as quickly as possible and watch it the whole time, which is absurd. Like, but you're like, all right, where like, what could they move their drink counter somewhere so that people could get to it faster to pick up their drink?

Or perhaps, like, God forbid, bring it out to you because it wasn't that big of an establishment. But anybody who's traveling with someone didn't have that problem because their partner was just sitting there keeping the table, watching the luggage, and you'd go pick up both drinks for everybody. No big deal. But train stations, there's a lot of solo travelers. This can't have been my only problem. Would I go there again? Yeah, sure. It was a great coffee. Did it annoy me? Yes.

Michelle Bond (13:31)
Mm-hmm.

Joan Kanner (13:40)
Marie, did you consider this is like not a solution show; we have a lot more questions than solutions. Did you consider either A) licking your luggage, which at least when growing up established that possession was yours or now yours, or perhaps just like defecate in the chair and then go like, "okay, my seat."

Marie Silverstrim (13:52)
I did not.

I considered neither of those, but

I appreciate your out of the box thinking, Joan.

Joan Kanner (14:02)
I they're

also low cost. I mean, I always suggest lower cost solutions as we're all bootstrapping. Go on.

Michelle Bond (14:02)
expect nothing less.

Marie Silverstrim (14:09)
you

So I've known you guys for many, many years now. And I love that when you guys start the podcast, you have, with the user experience in mind, or the user in mind, which in my head always translates to user experience. But we worked together a little bit when you did surveys, back for some of your other ventures, and just those little things that, again, like we're saying, when it becomes

If you don't put the thought in, it can be annoying and really turn off the people you're trying to attract without you even realizing it. Like something as simple as they're trying to walk in the door and now literally one foot inside your business, they're like annoyed or that what you name your website or something. But it's also how if you think through those things up that little bit of thought can also make them delighted.

So they're like, wow, this was super easy. And I would totally come here again. And that was so helpful. And I didn't need to call customer service or whatever. Like there's a couple key things that you can think about that you don't need to go to grad school and whatever. You can just put a little time into literally putting your feet in the shoes of your customer and walking through with like, all right, what if my hands were full and I had a small child like

Michelle Bond (15:09)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (15:35)
screaming in my arms while I was interacting with your business? Is there anything I could do to make the flow go a little better? I'm getting six texts from my husband asking about like, whatever I need to pick up at the grocery store while I'm filling out this form. Is that timeout really gonna like irritate the heck out of me because I like was halfway through it, I got distracted, I came back and now I have to start over.

So just little things like that that if you think through, it can really attract a lot of people and not just attract, it can stop other people from being annoyed and turned off. So just keep the people who are interested in your product without incidentals getting in the way. And like we said earlier, the good design is invisible. You put that time in and nobody's going to pat you on the back for good design. They're just not going to disappear.

Michelle Bond (16:10)
Hmm.

Joan Kanner (16:30)
So when it comes to being there and listening, think, it's important to like kind of dovetail at what you said earlier. So when we were doing Roadshow stuff for Bottoms Up Bagels or...

other types of events. One thing I would say, even if I had to work on the hot line I would say, "hey, Paul, hey, person, just make sure I'm closer to the front." Not so I can like overhear people to correct them and like micromanage and do stuff. I wanted to get that data that was like the most pure data. And we will, we will talk about surveys later on when it comes to this and what are you collecting? Why are you collecting? What will you do with it? But

Marie Silverstrim (16:59)
Mm.

Joan Kanner (17:07)
I think a lot of folks who are listening who are business owners or thinking about it are probably from a minoritized group, women, people of color and whatnot. I think it may actually be more of our inclination anyway to be present with our business as it's new. But I seriously would get, while I was frying an egg and putting together a brisket sandwich, I would get some of the best information. But I wouldn't expect my team member to always relay it. I mean, like, yes, we would meet and like kind of have that together, but there's definitely value in just being around.

Marie Silverstrim (17:36)
Yes, 100%. And I would agree entirely that some of the best value you get is not when you're probing for such a thing, like you're like, "how was your sandwich today?" But if you randomly hear it, because that's when people will be the most honest and candid about it and not feel like pressure to be like, "I like this sandwich. I don't want them to think it was bad if I give them three stars instead of five." But

Michelle Bond (17:55)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (18:04)
you're making the sandwich and you hear them say, you know, "I like it toasted." And I know like for Bottoms Up Bagels, it's fresh bagels. They don't need to be toasted. But a lot of us grew up without New Jersey bagels where you had to toast your bagel. And so it's just, yeah, you're just like, "I have to toast my bagel now." And so I'm pretty sure I said this a few times to you and got like, "well, Marie perhaps you could consider trying it..." But like, I could see that as something where you're like, doesn't necessarily mean

Michelle Bond (18:17)
We've properly indoctrinated you, Marie.

Marie Silverstrim (18:32)
It's, and this is like something I really want to emphasize is the like, why are they saying that? And so like, was saying like, "please toast my bagel" because that's my background and my history is all my bagels always got toasted. So did that mean you should toast my bagel? There's some, you know, people who will be "yeah, of course customer is always right toast that bagel for them." Perhaps, perhaps I just need to be educated. And so that's where you can hear that comment...

and decide, "well, why are they saying that and what do we want to do about it?" So I really want to emphasize that just because somebody says something doesn't mean you have to do what they say. It means you should ask why perhaps two to five times to get to the underlying, like, but why don't they know? Well, okay. Like if we were doing this in Jersey, people know this, but she's from upstate New York, which even though it's New York, it's completely different, blah, blah.

Michelle Bond (19:21)
Yeah.

Marie Silverstrim (19:31)
Like, okay, well, so she didn't have this experience. Well, why didn't she, like, is she gonna expect something different from a bagel than what we're delivering? Okay, we're doing this in Iowa. They have different expectations. How do we then, you know, we want to set our customers up for success, but we don't wanna scold somebody like, "you don't need to toast your bagel, you're dumb." Because that's what people, of course, hear anytime they're told they're wrong. They hear they're dumb, even if you don't say that.

And so it's like, like it's a new, like a different bagel experience and this and this, and they don't need to be toasted because they're so fresh. And like, really like take that as an opportunity to like educate in a positive way of this is a new exciting adventure versus "no dummy, you're wrong. Toasting bagels is for schmucks."

Michelle Bond (20:18)
Yeah, totally. Totally.

Marie Silverstrim (20:20)
And

you wouldn't have known any of that whole like monologue I just said, if Joan wasn't listening at the counter being like, "I heard like three people say they wanted to toast it this morning. Hmm. We're in a location where there are people who apparently toast their bagels. Like, let's be aware. And maybe we need to.

like communicate differently."

Joan Kanner (20:42)
Have a better like proactive thing.

Marie Silverstrim (20:44)
And maybe that only happens

in that shop because that's where the people have the history.

Joan Kanner (20:48)
Yeah, so Michelle does a couple more posts about the event and just says, "Hey, as a reminder, we do this and like, not only do you not need to do that, because these are hot from the oven, because the oven is like right behind us, but boy, oh boy, does that line go faster when I'm not toasting it."

Marie Silverstrim (20:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And then if somebody really still wants to toast it, you toast their damn bagel, like, you know.

Michelle Bond (21:06)
Right. Exactly. That's what we,

I mean, we got it. Yeah. And we got to that point too, where we, because we were kind of, well, whatever, I don't want to rehash all that stuff, but like, yeah, the why is really important. And so, because even, I, what I picked out too, from what you were saying was like, ask multiple times, because I bet you if we asked why people would say, I like it that way. But I think you like it that way. Cause that's all, you know, or you look at that way because that's your, you have other things associated with this.

Joan Kanner (21:08)
I think so.

Marie Silverstrim (21:25)
Mm.

Hmm.

Michelle Bond (21:36)
And you like it that way because you just might like it that way. And that might be where we end up anyway. But I think different people multiple times in that obviously has a merit for any kind of thing that you're designing or doing.

Marie Silverstrim (21:39)
Right, like I love that crunch, like even if it's fresh.

Joan Kanner (21:52)
 I was going to say that we're working from the outside in when it comes to different ways that people can measure different things and have different questions and do things on their own, whether they are just in pre-launch mode and trying to like test the concept and save themselves some bucks or whether they are post-launch and they're in their first iteration of a business or an idea. And one thing, Marie, I think that no matter who's listening, you know, you could be this owner or not, but you're also a customer. And I think you should think about...

Things like, what does four out of five stars mean? What does "good" mean? When someone tells me they don't like something, I feel like it's important, whether it's survey work or focus groups, to take the time, say fuck it to the rest of your questions, and just be able to improv in that moment. Just say, "well, tell me why you think it was 'good'." Yeah, why you think it was good? "It was salty. I like salty things." That tells me something. It says keep it up.

Marie Silverstrim (22:39)
Tell me more.

Yeah, "tell me more" is like literally one of the phrases we use the most, particularly if anyone says anything remotely surprising, like good, bad, otherwise just like, or if you just never know, like if you don't know what to say, like you were expecting, you know, like, "how was your bagel today?" And they're like, "my gosh, it's raining out." You're like, "what the fuck" like, like, "tell me more." And

Michelle Bond (22:46)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (23:15)
It is, it's just, it's a really good way to get to those underlying "whys" without feeling like an interrogation, because sometimes it can feel like that, or you're the three-year-old being like, "why, why, why?" And like you were saying, and I think we kind of wandered away from the MVP, but we'll come back to that. The "tell me more" is a really good way to,

turning it into a conversation. Like you can have, you should have your set questions. Like, this is what I'm looking to understand. But there's no reason to not probe on something that's interesting. And just a really basic, tell me more. Like, might be something as simple as like, "it's raining. I'm always grumpy when it's raining. Nothing will taste good. Like, I'm just, I'm not the person you want to talk to today." Okay, cool.

Or like there are like maybe like some superstar taste bud person and they're like, when it rains, things don't rise well enough and it's too chewy. Like who knows? But it's like, that's like, you're like, that was not what I expected you to say. Tell me more. And it's very unbiased. Cause it's really easy to be like, did you like that? And people's like responses will be like.

Yeah, because they don't want to tell you like, "no, that was awful." Like, "how are you doing?" Everyone's like, "fine, great. How are you?" Ain't nobody fine right now. Like, let's just be real. Like, but everyone will answer "fine" to that question.

Michelle Bond (24:43)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (24:47)
And it's really hard to ask things that aren't like, "what was good?" "What was bad?" you can balance them that way, but just being like, "tell me about your experience." And if they can give you that little bit of a seed and then you can say, "tell me more," like, that's the best way to really start like digging in there and getting to the good gold of what was happening and what they want. And if you're just starting out, you're like, I don't even know what to begin with. Cause they don't have anything to respond to.

You can have a conversation and tell that story be like, "when you go to other places of said product or business or whatever, like, yeah, what, what, what really strikes you as interesting?" And like "interesting" is a really good word too, because you're like, "interesting" could be good or bad. And you're like, "it's really interesting to how like they over carbonate that stuff. And it's incredible." You're like, "okay, carbonation." You're like scribbling that down.

Joan Kanner (25:21)
Kombucha.

Michelle Bond (25:31)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (25:41)
So you don't even have to have your own product necessarily. You can just ask about other people's products and get their feedback on that. it's just, you're just getting opinions. And it's possible that if you completely disagree with all of the people you're talking to, so there's a couple things that could be happening. One, you may have had some wrong perceptions yourself. Like you personally love carbonation and think it's the best thing in the world.

Michelle Bond (26:04)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (26:07)
and they're all like, this is too much and I'm super gassy all afternoon and I can't deal with it because I burp through all my podcasts. Not great. Okay, well, so maybe you, as not your own user, you're not buying your own goods, need to tweak to match your customers. Could be. Two, maybe you're not talking to the right people.

so like if you're talking to people who've never actually drank kombucha before, like only once, like they're not, they're not your people, like they're not your customers. They're not who you're selling to. So getting their feedback while interesting isn't actually going to help you a lot because they're not the ones that are going to be buying your stuff. So one, maybe they're the right people and you're, you need to adjust your own stuff. Maybe they're not the right people and you don't need to adjust your stuff because you just need to find the right people. Then it's not necessarily that the product is wrong.

Or maybe they're like the right people, and that's the right feedback, and you don't want to adjust. You're like, no, I think I'm doing something new here. And I want to give it a go, even though it's against what I'm hearing. that's where, like, sometimes that's true, like, like, disruptive groundbreaking, like people like Airbnb and, you know, VRBOs where you're like, would you like to go stay in a room in somebody's house?

People might've been like, no, like what, ew, why would I do that? And clearly, like people love to do that. So there are times where you take that research and you're like, I'm hearing this, but I really truly believe once they experience it, it'll like, they might have a change in mindset. It's just so new and different to them that they need to try it first and then I'll do it.

Michelle Bond (27:34)
Like hell no. Yeah.

Marie Silverstrim (27:59)
And then that gets into the whole MVP,

the minimum viable product if you don't live in such worlds. And it's basically like, what is the most basic thing you can do to prove or disprove that this will work and then add like one little feature and one little feature and one little feature. And so...

In courses, like when they talk about this, they always use a hotel example where like at a bare minimum, you need to have pictures. You need to have a text for the phone number, the address of the hotel location and pictures because they could always somebody could pick up the phone and call you to book a room. So an MVP for a hotel, you don't even have to book anything. And then you're like, all right, well, obviously booking online is nice.

So you add the booking, maybe you can't reschedule online because that's trickier. And then, you know, and that's where you like prove that, this little hotel, this location, these rooms, people are interested, the price point is good, whatever. And then you put the money into online bookings because clearly that will be better, but you don't need to start there.

Michelle Bond (29:06)
Mm hmm. Yeah. I'm really glad you, you went there because to me it's so, I was going to actually go into like kind of target audiences where when you were talking about that example before the hotel, but it, to me, it's also related because part of getting at the "why" and the "what" people are looking for is related to who they are. Like what type of traveler are they and all that kind of stuff. And so one of the questions I had for you is as

Marie Silverstrim (29:15)
Mm.

Hmm.

Michelle Bond (29:36)
the landscape shifts around a lot of people right now and say that they say they're not starting up. Say they have a sense of like who their target audiences are. They know what they need. know like things like, yeah, you take everybody's feedback, grain of salt, or no, actually I'm going to start a new, you know, I'm going to research a new product line or something. But how do you account for maybe like the same customers whose needs have changed given like an external environment?

Marie Silverstrim (30:02)
Mmm.

Michelle Bond (30:04)
You know, is that just a matter like, you view them as a new audience or is there a way to account for some of those things that are shifting without thinking about it as like a whole different, like, you know, a revenue stream or something.

Marie Silverstrim (30:17)
Yeah!

That is a great question So I'm gonna kind of ask those questions back to you because you guys are the business owners. So we're in a world right now where people have been working from home and there is a huge shift to, especially in the Maryland, Virginia area going back to the office,

fairly abruptly. So let's say you're a bagel coffee shop type owner and these people who used to come and work, you know, have been regulars for the past five years, come get a coffee. They always used to come at, let's say, nine, 10 a.m. And either you see them a lot less, let's say you're only seeing them on weekends now, or you're seeing them earlier or they're just completely disappeared.

What would you guys do, given that situation? Because I feel like that's kind of what you're describing, Michelle, right? Like, things have changed, your people are behaving differently, what do you do?

Michelle Bond (31:18)
Yeah, no, that, mean...

Yeah, I was thinking about it in like less like a tangible business, but I think it's a great example. mean, we as we're talking, I'm like, that's exactly what we had to do during COVID. It was like the reverse almost like people were in commuting hours and then they shifted to, you know, working from home or whatever. But Joan, you look like you were going to say something first.

Marie Silverstrim (31:30)
But yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Joan Kanner (31:37)
Thanks.

No, I think it's appropriate, I think, to keep things a little bit more concrete, I think, throughout this more of the introductory session for people. For us, you can ask people, you can literally, I mean, you ask the people who do show up, but you send out a survey, just recognize the response rate, which we will also talk about, may not be the best because people are in transition, although people may also want to cling to something as simple as a three-question survey from their bagel business versus other upsetting things around them.

And just see it's very possible that people can just say, can you open a little earlier? Or could you maybe like, is there a way for you to hook up? Like with CMS, have like every Thursday, they have like a farmer's market. If you show up, I'll buy this stuff. But I understand that getting that response, it's a really, it's a sub-segment of a sub-segment of the people who probably come to you. But there's really, there's in terms of like time budget and money budget. And time budget is a new concept for me, by the way, all these years into doing this stuff, it will be worth your while...

to send something out like that. I'm quite sure a lot of these businesses for folks who listen in, you probably have like a newsletter, definitely on the socials. Yeah, just say you notice this and ask because this is not like, you don't need IRB approval for asking a marketing survey. Institutional, institutional review board. I have served on one when I was at Hopkins and otherwise had to run stuff through different institutions

Marie Silverstrim (32:45)
Facebook or in social media, yep.

Yeah, and anyone who doesn't know IRB, it's like the academic board. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (33:04)
like University of Maryland, Baltimore. and you have to run things through to make sure that they're gonna be sensitive to people's personally identifiable information. When it comes to things like marketing, honestly, do I even care which person responds to me? I may even have like put in your email. I just send it out. I don't wanna collect the email. I just wanna know generally what people are interested in. I may not even ask about demographics. Although honestly, I would consider asking people whether or not they were a federal worker, but they also may not wanna.

Marie Silverstrim (33:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, just, and everything you just said was what I would have recommended, Joan. So one, anybody who's coming in that's your regular that you feel comfortable with, 100 % just chat them up while they're getting their coffee. Like, I noticed, aw.

Joan Kanner (33:30)
Offer that.

Michelle Bond (33:45)
Jones shooting hearts again even after Valentine's Day.

Marie Silverstrim (33:49)
Yeah, like, and as a regular to coffee shops, like I love it when they're like, "we know you" and they like, it like makes me feel happy that like I feel seen and known. Being like, "I noticed you're coming in different time lately. Like, how's things going?" And again, like keeping it as unbiased as possible, because it may have nothing to do like your assumption that like, the back to work, blah, blah, you must be affected by this.

Maybe I just, started a new gym class and I'm coming in at a different time now. It may have nothing to do with anything, but just ask. If, and for the people that like they're not there to ask or they're not regular enough, you feel comfortable. Yeah, like I think I would even just a social media like survey because, and to your point, Joan, as minimal as possible, as we said, people don't like to read surveys like...

For some reason, people are allergic to them. They will just hide from them at all costs. So it could even just be two poles. Have you been affected by return to work? Yes or no? And these could be your regulars. They could be brand new people. Just, hey, people who follow my page, are you going back to work?

Michelle Bond (34:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I-

Marie Silverstrim (35:03)
you know

where you live, you know your locations, you know that's how that's affecting people's commutes. And then two, like, you you get that first and maybe a week later, like, you know, would you come in if we were open at seven, you know, six to 8am or something like something where you're like, that seems absurd. Well, yeah, was absurd when people working from home, but people leave six o'clock and they would love to get their coffee on like, and I know Michelle, you mentioned this on I think it was the DEI pod that you guys had, like,

Don't ask questions you can't deliver. So if you're like, yeah, like people are like, I would love if you were open at 6 a.m. to get my coffee and you have no one who can staff that. Do not ask that question, like ask it for 7 a.m. or whatever time you can actually do because if you, you people see online that you're like, yeah, 6 a.m., 90%. Well, you know, there's hundreds of people that would show up for that. Maybe you ask that if you're willing to commit yourself to getting there, but if you're like, well, there's no way I can do that.

Michelle Bond (35:44)
right

Marie Silverstrim (36:00)
That's rude. Again, that's rude. Don't do that. Don't promise things you can't deliver. Don't annoy your customers.

Michelle Bond (36:02)
Don't annoy your customer.

That's like that, that the thesis statement. No, but it's true. And like, I think too, in that regard, there are trade-offs and I think customers also need to realize that. And I think do understand that if you have a chance to communicate with them, like, okay, well maybe like, yeah, we can open at six, which would be the best days to do that because you know, then we can't, we can't be open seven days or maybe even five days, but you know, the days we're open, we want to make sure we catch you.

Joan Kanner (36:06)
Don't yeah.

Marie Silverstrim (36:29)
Right, maybe two.

Michelle Bond (36:32)
What would be a day you know you're more likely to do that if you're in the in a conversation at least, you know. And one of the things I was thinking regarding. I'm sorry.

Marie Silverstrim (36:39)
Yeah, because there's, yeah.

No, no, I was just thinking exactly that. Like there's a coffee shop here that they close early on Mondays and Tuesdays because they stay open throughout the afternoon the rest of the week. People wanted them to be open seven days a week. They couldn't support seven, but they could do two mornings. And those were the mornings that were hopping. that, yeah, exactly. Michelle doesn't have to be like, well, I've committed this for everything. You could commit that to Mondays because those are just the most brutal days for people.

Michelle Bond (37:06)
Yeah. And you can try it and like, you know, those people still may not come and then you decide whether it's worth it, you know, but, I was thinking in more of a like service industry, like a, like an online based or like an e-commerce type business where, like one of the things I keep thinking about, especially like, as you say, in this area is that, you know, people, although nationally, right, people are struggling economically. And so if you're a retailer who's selling things,

Marie Silverstrim (37:09)
and check.

Michelle Bond (37:34)
And you notice that, these sales have really just plummeted like beyond the normal January, February, you know, quarter one dip. and you know, one would automatically assume, right? That's because people don't have as much money and they're like tightening up their spending, but you know, check that because there are also things there. I mean, maybe you can develop a different type of product. That's like.

from ingredients you already have if you're like say you're making skincare or you're doing so I don't know but you know like there are ways I think and we saw a lot of this during COVID where you can pivot or you can adjust products based on people's buying habits but I think the the key thing here is that you need to understand those habits you need to understand what's behind those habits not only those habits.

Marie Silverstrim (38:22)
Yeah. And that's where the why, where you're like, I see this. I'm making an assumption because I know what's affecting me in my life. And so that clearly must be affecting what's all of my customers. Like my budget has become tight. There's must be tight. And maybe, but you're not your customer. And that is, you know, like another huge tenant, like "reading is hard" and "you're not your user." So you may have. Don't just generally don't annoy people.

Michelle Bond (38:47)
Don't annoy your customer.

Marie Silverstrim (38:55)
Like you may have the same needs. I've said, like, like if you have nobody to talk to, worst case you put yourself in somebody else's shoes and walk through it. So like Marie, you just said you're not your user. Like, well, yeah, but we all have, you know, have to make do in a pinch. And the longer you've been in a business, you have, you know, I love the phrase institutional knowledge. Like you have like some understanding of I've talked to so many people over so much time. I can make really good educated guesses because I do have that.

wealth of knowledge that I've been accumulating. But sometimes things change that are so abrupt or unexpected or unusual or unprecedented, unprecedented, and that's the word I wanted, that you're like, dude, I don't know what's happening here. I need to ask somebody, preferably multiple somebody's. I love qualitative data. I would much rather have a conversation with a couple trusted people that I feel are good representatives.

Michelle Bond (39:48)
Hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (39:52)
But quantitative matters too, because again, like those couple of representatives might not give me a good well-rounded picture. I might be getting some huge gaps if I talk to three people versus I get a survey that hits 300. How do I get 300 people to answer my survey? Probably do it on social media with one question. If you have, you know, the followers and stuff, people will give you that amount of time, especially if there's like a cute little video with it or something. So.

Michelle Bond (40:11)
Hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (40:19)
feel like I wandered off somewhere from Yeah.

Joan Kanner (40:20)
I was gonna ask you, I was gonna go back a little bit.

There's gonna be some terms that we're gonna include in our show notes. One is quantitative, another one's qualitative. We'll also have more about MVP. We'll talk a little bit about surveys versus polls. We'll talk about focus groups.

Marie Silverstrim (40:27)
Mmm.

Yeah,

Throw agile in there too, particularly lowercase "a" "agile" versus capital "A" and it's a software development. You tend to hear it, but the idea of like agility. And that's why I like the lowercase a where you make decisions. And if it doesn't work, you change your mind and you move quickly. Not necessarily breaking things, but you don't have to ponder forever. You don't have to come up with like, I'm a hundred percent sure this is right.

You're got 80% of the data. have an educated guess. I'm going to try it. And if it doesn't work after a month or two, I'll keep watching, see how it goes. And then I'll change my mind. And that's like being lowercase "a" "agile" about try it, think about it, take, you know, the observations. Adjust pivot, you know, maybe it's a huge, you know, 180 pivot. Maybe it's a tweak, but you just feel like, oh, I tried this. I observed. I try this. I observe. And.

Just keep repeating that observation until you find the right groove. And then you keep doing it anyhow, because as you said, things change over time. Winter becomes summer, people start going back to work, people stop going back to work. Life changes. It's not like, I got it right, the end. And we all know those companies. It's like Sears and Kmart. They got it right, and they stopped, and they ended.

Joan Kanner (41:56)
There's also other considerations for the people listening when it comes to data collection. We'll talk about the different points. Whether it's like me on the hot line listening to what customers are saying, Marie's kind of in some ways referring to focus groups. I think people may have to realize that there are incentives. I mean, anyone who gets a survey from their car dealership or the grocery store on a receipt and I'm one of those people who like feels like I was many. I fill out the 80% easily.

Michelle Bond (42:19)
my god, Joan.

Joan Kanner (42:23)
of the surveys I received because I have done survey work and I know how important it is to get that feedback. And I always try to give whatever nuanced feedback I have. However, when it comes to bootstrapping and when we had questions with Bottoms Up Bagels of like, what new bagel types should we institute here for options we have tested and we're hoping to bring to you for that there's no incentives. The incentive could be you might be on the winning team and get the bagel that you want, right? That's all you need. It's also a quick survey. You can be waiting in line and fucking answering it. It's not a big deal. However, when I answer stuff,

for larger businesses, sometimes they're able to incentivize by saying, you're going to be part of the sweepstakes if you want to enter it and get something. So I think when folks are thinking about building their first survey or having a focus group, just be mindful that like people are also, these are non-intrusive questions. People are happy to give their opinion about food. And we had someone who does like a fitness garment, you know, we had Susan Clayton who does Run Mitts. People love giving their opinions. So I think, you know, there could be times where you do want to incentivize.

Like when I've done Fugue, Marie, I had I dinner for people and we had drinks and snacks. I wanted to be sitting with these folks and using up their time. So I wanted to give them more of like a happy hour atmosphere, but you don't always have to do that.

Marie Silverstrim (43:32)
Yeah, and you said before, Joan, the time budget as well, and that goes for you, but it also goes to whoever you're talking about. So if you're only asking them one question on social media, you don't need to pay them for that nonsense. That's free. They're just scrolling through anyhow. If you're asking them 20 questions, including multiple, like, please tell me more, explain yourself type...

...anything that you have to type out or talk through and really ponder, how do I articulate this? Yeah, in some way, validate that my time matters as well as your user. So whether that is, like Joan said, that you have a really small budget, maybe it's a drawing for something, maybe it's a free cup of coffee. If you're waiting in line, if you fill out the survey while you're waiting, we'll give you a free coffee or something. And again, this is all on your budget.

Also, you know your people. Like if they're like, I would love to like sit here and do this, you can probably give them less because there is intrinsic value as I feel happy and proud to have helped your business. And that has value too. It doesn't just have to be, you know, product or monetary type value.

Michelle Bond (44:44)
Yeah, well said.

Joan Kanner (44:55)
Think ultimately people need to be guided by the Joan Kanner principle of don't ask questions you don't want the answers to.

Marie Silverstrim (45:02)
Yeah, and you can't, like it's hard to know, because if you don't know the answer, you can't always act on the answer. But if you don't have a means of changing anything, or you're not willing to change anything, don't ask either. like, so Joan's, don't ask questions you don't want the answer to, and Michelle's, and then you're gotta do something about it. So you collect all this data and it's like, well, it says that we're in the wrong business. You're like, well, too bad.

Michelle Bond (45:24)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (45:30)
Or I want to open at 6 a.m. Well, I'm not a morning person and I'm not gonna hire anybody else. Well, shit, like what are you gonna do?

Michelle Bond (45:38)
But that's how you make decisions. You gather data and you make decisions not only for your customer and your business, but also for you as an owner or an operator and what kind of business you want to have and who you want to serve and what you want to be about.

Joan Kanner (45:38)
drone.

Marie Silverstrim (45:56)
And sometimes you think out of the box, you're like, well, I don't like any of these options. Maybe I stay open later in the evening because people need to unwind now differently. there's not always one right answer. Well, there's never one right answer. There's always wrong answers, but there's never one right answer.

Michelle Bond (46:25)
And related, so I was going to ask a little bit that like we're on the topic of feedback and just, you touched on this a little bit earlier on about like, you know, you don't have to take everything that you're given, but you, you know, you need to understand what's behind it and that kind of thing. and I, I was thinking about that in regard to,

also folks who may not be doing kind of like direct to customer stuff. Like we even talked about this in the work that you do, where you have maybe like a first audience who's your, who's your client or who's the person paying for the project, but you're actually building something for an end user. And so can you talk a little bit about like that balance slash dance and also how you incorporate like useful feedback or how you determine which feedback is going to keep you going towards like that.

Marie Silverstrim (46:53)
Mm.

Michelle Bond (47:18)
larger goal and which is going to take you off into something that's really not like the task at hand.

Marie Silverstrim (47:24)
Yeah, that's a really, really good point. you know, if I can state back, just to make sure I'm answering the right thing is like, you can have multiple stakeholders and some of them, well, let me say the multiple stakeholders and their opinions will have different levels of weight, but the weight of their opinions, meaning like the strength and appropriateness, often has nothing to do with

Michelle Bond (47:34)
Yep, exactly.

Marie Silverstrim (47:53)
the amount of time you have to talk to said people. So in a more digestible way, I have muckety-muck executives. I have zero weight of what they want because they're not the ones using the thing I'm making, but they're the ones with the money. So they have opinions and they think their opinions are very important and will say them often.

can't ignore their opinions because clearly they have the money. But when they say like, we should be open these times of the day. Like, I really want to know that from the people who are actually coming and buying stuff. And like, so this is and I feel like the most I know Joan always loves, like the nepo babies and whatnot, but you could I feel like that's the like, well, you know, there's somebody with a lot of money who says,

Michelle Bond (48:36)
Of course,

Marie Silverstrim (48:50)
my favorite color is blue, want all the products to be blue. And you're like, okay, well, that doesn't work for our customers because we live in Baltimore and purple is really a better color for us. But the person with the money says this. And so this is going to your point, like you may not have access to the actual users, but you're getting an awful earful from

Michelle Bond (49:17)
Hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (49:18)
people who you're like, that's not what I want. So you have a couple options as always. You can try to have a conversation with that person explaining why you think that may not be good. That doesn't quite frankly usually go well depending on their ego and yours and how open they are to your thoughts. You can do...

A/B testing, which is a delight and I'm very fond of, but it requires getting access to people and time and money. So it's harder to do. And that's basically where you do both options. The one that you think is right. And the one that whoever is pushing things along thinks is right. And I say whoever's pushing things along, it might even be the user. Like the user's like, I really, really, really want a dill bagel. And you're like, what? don't know if I

like people are saying this, but I don't know if that's actually going to sell. you like, I think it should totally be an oregano bagel. And so you do like a taste test and you do like dill bagels and oregano bagels and you see like what it goes. And there's key things there of like, again, the biasing of which one they taste first, if it's morning or afternoon or whatever. But the idea is that if they say like, I want blue.

You know, stuff and I want purple stuff. You make a little bit of both and you see what sells better. And then you have facts to go to them with being like, look, like, I know you love blue. This is a, you know, unfortunately fluff them up a little and be like, this is a great idea, but in this marketplace, you know, our football team and everything is great. Purple is the color of this marketplace, perhaps blue in a different demographic. Like again, like nobody likes being shit on.

So you don't have to be like, you're dumb. But proving like the sales show that purple sold better than blue. Or maybe you'll be surprised when blue like kills it, or maybe it's 50-50. Like, and this is where you have to be open to, you just ask this question, you open this door, like you're gonna get feedback and it may not be what you want as the designer, decision maker, whoever. And then this was all coming back to your question, Michelle, of like, okay, I don't have the ear of the people. And you're like,

Well, I don't have anybody buying stuff. I have somebody giving me these opinions. Sometimes you just trust them, which I don't love user representatives as opposed to users, but you take what you have. And I've mentioned a couple of times, I love storytelling and scenarios where you kind of just use your imagination and what you've learned in life. And you try to walk through like, okay, like I really wish I had somebody to talk to.

but I don't. So let me walk through, put myself in different scenarios as a single mom with kids, as a busy college student, as a guy out with his bros. Things that I'm not any of those. So I might not get those needs right, but I can be like, all right, well, based on stereotypes and what I've seen in Hollywood and blah, blah, I'm making an educated guess. And then you know what?

You try it and you change it if it doesn't work. Cause at some point you will get users, you will get that feedback and as much as you can embed like a survey, know, products do this all the time with little QRs on it being like, tell us what you thought. Or if it's a website, you can do metrics into the website to see where people bail on the process. And so at some point, like if you can get the talk to those users, like, you know, verbally metrics,

surveys, whatever, but sometimes you just make your best guess. And sometimes you go with whoever has the money, what they tell you to do because they have the money, which sucks. Like money doesn't equal knowledge, as I think you guys talked about on a prior pod, but unfortunately, if you piss off the people who have money, you don't have money anymore.

Michelle Bond (53:26)
And if they have money, then maybe they have money for when you have to tweak it to be closer to what your user wants to, you know, I mean, if, then maybe having not, you know, died on that hill, you can be on the next hill and have the money to do it. You know, I mean, it's all about being strategic and, but it,

Marie Silverstrim (53:32)
Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know,

from a place of privilege, if you're working with somebody who's that egotistical with money, like maybe you want to try and work with somebody else. And I know that's why I say like place of privilege, like maybe you can't sometimes, but there is something about like, am I working with the right people? If that's not a conversation I can have with my business partners.

Michelle Bond (54:04)
Right. Yeah, we've run into that, not often, but a couple of big times in terms of like partnerships that just didn't end up working out, you know, because of that, because of like the pushback or the ego or the like lack of ability to have the conversation about, you know, what really made sense or what really worked for even like their team, but especially our team and all that kind of stuff. But the biggest thing that also what you're saying is like,

using your experience, making an educated guess, trying to put yourself in those shoes if you don't have somebody to talk to you. What strikes me about that too is all of those are, even if you're wrong, those are all exercises in checking your bias, right? Like they're all opportunities for you to say, I don't know. And I have an opinion based on my experience. So let me just check that. Let me pretend that that's not who I am in this moment so I can see...

Marie Silverstrim (54:47)
Hmm.

Michelle Bond (55:02)
...what it's like from these other perspectives. And I think even just getting in the habit of doing that as any kind of leader, much less human being, can only be fruitful. I think the balance there, and that's why I asked the question is like, how do you also then say, you know what? No, really think that like, yeah, I'm open to all these perspectives. I've done my due diligence. I really want to make this right for the end user, but I think I'm really right on this.

know, or I think I'm really, you know, it's like that that's always a tension, I think, particularly for women and underrepresented founders to say like, no, I get like, okay, I did my homework, but I'm still going with what's what I know to be right based on this, this and that.

Marie Silverstrim (55:39)
Yeah, trusting your gut and

being like, this is what feels like the right answer matters, too. And if you are, like, I'm like, you're like confident enough to go with it, but you're not confident. Like you're like, gosh, like I'm getting a lot of either whoever I talk to, or even my own scenarios, a little pushback of maybe it's not right. Get anybody else's opinion and get it as soon as possible. Like going back to that MVP, like talk...

to anyone, like friends, neighbors, like whoever, like get somebody else's opinion, get out of your own head and as much as possible get out of your own influence bubble. Like we all have, you know, like I live in white women world. Like that's people I know, most of my friends. Like if I am...

putting myself in shoes, like I'm like, oh, okay, I've been a college student before I could put myself in those shoes. I've never been a guy out with a bunch of guy friends for a guy's night. So I'm going to talk to my friend who's a guy who's done this before and be like, I made these assumptions, like I'm not going to make them do the work. But like I walked through this, is any of this right? And he'll be like, yeah, you more or less or like, no, that's not at all what goes down.

And like women of color, they're people of color, women, just any minority. If you're not that minority, you don't have that lived experience. And to your point about biases, as a fat person, I have very different experiences than somebody who's not. And so like, I look at those chairs and I'm like, I don't want to sit in those chairs because I am not entirely sure it's not going to just fall out from underneath me.

Michelle Bond (57:23)
Mm.

Marie Silverstrim (57:27)
Joan might be like, these are the cutest chairs ever. We're gonna put them in our shop. that's not necessarily, like you can't put yourself in every person's shoes, but that more diverse perspective as much as you can, like again, 80, 20, you can't do everything. You're not gonna be perfect. But if you notice, you're like, Like I notice Marie never sits down or she always takes that one chair. Again, like hey, is this chair super comfy? Like I know she'd to always sit there. Tell me more.

Because as soon as you say, is it more comfortable? Are these chairs scary? You're putting your own bias and your own assumption in there. So that's the phrase, "tell me more" is the best thing you can do if you're like, I don't know how to ask unbiased questions. One, it's really hard. And especially if you're thinking at the same time. So just, tell me more, Marie. I see you always sit here. Tell me more. And hopefully, if I have the trust, which that's scary and vulnerable, which I'm using that as my own example.

But like somebody might not want to say like, I feel uncomfortable doing X, Y, Z. But if it's a regular, they're like, this one's really comfortable or it's always available or the sun comes in the window just so like you could learn all sorts of stuff that is not what you were anticipating. And then if you happen to notice like all of your plus size customers never sit in any of those cafe chairs, sometimes you might have to make your own intuitive leap and just be like, Hmm.

Michelle Bond (58:39)
Mm-hmm.

Marie Silverstrim (58:51)
Like, are they too spindly to hold people? Are people like a little scared to sit there and maybe just switch out one or two and see if that changes? Like, people aren't sitting on my outdoor patio chairs. they're getting a little more action. Hmm. That might be something.

Michelle Bond (59:07)
And I think too, like we're giving a lot of examples for the purpose of like, you know, making things concrete of like customer service type stuff and things like that. But I think a lot of the intent is around ways to get brief pieces of information that can inform something that you are going to build or design or try or test for. So

Marie Silverstrim (59:29)
Mm. And inform is the perfect

Michelle Bond (59:31)
It's not

Marie Silverstrim (59:31)
word.

Michelle Bond (59:32)
as laden with like, you know, hopefully like having a negative impression of anything that you're, it's more about genuinely like, give me your opinion. like, thinking about something new that you might, you might be able to help inform, which is another thing that people like to do, agreed that like the burden can't be too heavy.

Marie Silverstrim (59:43)
Mm.

Yeah. And also if you're doing, and I was just thinking about this from my own recent experience, and you can always take that option of the tell me more, even if it is, whether it is for a new product or how was your experience today. had something recently where the car dealership did something weird. I took it in, so I gave them a subpar review and just a little statement of why.

Michelle Bond (59:53)
I'm-

Marie Silverstrim (1:00:18)
And they wrote back and I have noticed this, like if you are a business owner and didn't hear what again, like what you were expecting, tell me more applies to surveys too. If there is, know, whether it's a Google review or whatever, you know, mechanism, if it's an anonymous survey, you might not be able to, but even you posted it on social media and you are hearing some things you didn't expect making an additional media post about, Oh, we didn't realize.

XYZ was happening in our shop. Thank you so much for letting us know. We're gonna like look into correcting it. Or if anyone has ideas of what we could do better there, or, you know, please tell us next time you're in. That.

Even if it's a survey, turning it into a communication where it is the full cycle of I asked you, you answered, and then I state that I heard you and what I'm going to do about it. It goes so far, even if it's a negative feedback, to making people hopeful and giving you another chance as a business.

Michelle Bond (1:01:24)
Well, Marie, it has been so fun to pick your brain about all of these things that I think have such a resonance in work, but in life too. So, before we let you go, you know, we always like to ask folks what they're proofing on.

Marie Silverstrim (1:01:39)
So I should have thought about this in advance because I clearly know you asked this question. So this is 100% my own doing. But I'm just gonna to unfortunately be honest, which is awkward for me.

Michelle Bond (1:01:52)
unfortunate for us.

Marie Silverstrim (1:01:53)
Fortunate for you, but so I know, I guess what I'm proofing on right now is in my personal life, my father has Alzheimer's and I've been in a caretaking role and I've been really working on my own boundaries and so how do I make time for him, make time for myself, make time for work, make time for my friends and.

Clearly there is not enough time in the day for all of those things. So learning how and when to say no, when to prioritize, communicating well. So that is, you know, the proofing being like it's a rest time so that then you can come out of it and grow and be better and thinking. And so I actually have taken a short leave from work, which is why I have time to do the show with you guys, which has been a delight by the way.

I had no idea why I did have some idea of how much I enjoyed just randomly pontificating.

Michelle Bond (1:02:51)
We did.

Marie Silverstrim (1:02:52)
I know you did.

Joan Kanner (1:02:53)
This is our

first five hour episode I have to edit.

Marie Silverstrim (1:02:56)
I'm sorry. Sorry, not sorry. yeah, like it's been like a really eye-opening thing, like even like the time budgeting you were talking about. that proofing has really just been on me and my boundaries of how do I make sure I am in my best place so that I can do the things I want to do and, you know, putting myself

Michelle Bond (1:02:57)
No, [something incoherent]. It's awesome.

Marie Silverstrim (1:03:26)
At least first or second, if not, you know, like at least second, if not first, but like, feel like between, you know, work and my dad and whatnot, I was easily down in the third, fourth place of prioritizing until I took this break and really kind of focused. And again, like I'm super lucky I was in a spot to do that. And I recognize not everybody is, and I really had to hit a spot where things were...

Michelle Bond (1:03:37)
Mmm.

Marie Silverstrim (1:03:52)
...pretty bad, but also had leveled out before I could even do that, which is funny because you think you need the break when things are the worst, but things actually had to get better before I was okay enough to take that break. Yeah, just kind of proofing on me and boundaries. The book I've been reading about boundaries is Nedra Tawwab's

make boundaries, find peace. And it's just, it's a delight. It was hard. It's it's it's, know, for somebody who doesn't have good boundaries, it's, it's brutal to like take that step back and look at what you need to do. But it's also very enlightening and concrete ways to like take those steps forward. So if you struggle with that, that's my little plug for that book. I really have been appreciating it.

Joan Kanner (1:04:37)
I appreciate you sharing all that Marie and I, as someone who struggled with my own boundaries with people and things and time and especially work, I didn't have the best models.

Marie Silverstrim (1:04:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (1:04:49)
It wasn't... ...all

me. I learned it by watching you, okay? May every Gen Xer nod their head in knowing what that reference is. Every other people, look it up. It's worth your time.

Marie Silverstrim (1:04:52)
Ha

Michelle Bond (1:04:52)
haha

haha

No, it's so true. That's a, what a beautiful, wonderful thing to be proofing on. And that's really like such a, such a hard, such a hard thing to crack, but even just recognizing that it needs to happen and making the time and space to do it.

Marie Silverstrim (1:05:19)
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Joan Kanner (1:05:20)
Well done.

I know it's like reinforcing within yourself, but also let us be people who are also reinforcing that. It's actually a great example and there is a difference in someone who knows you personally. You can just see it. It's made a difference.

Marie Silverstrim (1:05:34)
Thank you. I appreciate that little validation. It's always nice.

Michelle Bond (1:05:47)
Well, my dear, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This like, could you think of a better way to wrap up Season 3? Like, holy cow, we've done three seasons of this. And thank you so much.

Marie Silverstrim (1:05:56)
Congratulations to you guys,

that's amazing.

Michelle Bond (1:05:59)
Ugh, no, we're delighted.

Marie Silverstrim (1:06:01)
I remember

camping with you where you were like kicking around names for this. So that's very exciting.

Joan Kanner (1:06:06)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bond (1:06:06)
Yes, you've been there

for the beginning of this and many, many other things. So thank you for lending us your time and your wisdom and your analogies and your wonderful spirit. We appreciate it so much.

Marie Silverstrim (1:06:20)
Thank you ladies, I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Joan Kanner (1:06:25)
same here. Now I have to go ahead and pick my survey so I can make sure I get the QR code tomorrow. It's like get it ready for Thursday and Friday. Then all the data comes.

Marie Silverstrim (1:06:31)
Mm.

And then you can get AI to analyze it for you. Ta-da! Non-evil magic.

Michelle Bond (1:06:34)
You're going to have to listen to this.

There you go.

You're to have to re-listen to this episode for tips in running your data.

Joan Kanner (1:06:46)
five hours.

Nope. CliffsNotes.

Marie Silverstrim (1:06:50)
15 minutes over.

[theme music begins]

Joan Kanner
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme music, Bagels for the Kraken, was written and performed by Thorn Haze. Additional music from Pixabay. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes, disclaimers, and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage dot com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Instagram, threads, and TikTok at Proofing Stage. Visit our Patreon page to support the show and get even more great content. 

I'm your host Joan Kanner. 

Michelle Bond
And I'm your host Michelle Bond. Thanks for listening. 

[theme music ends]

Michelle Bond (1:07:44)
Well that brings us to MVPs right Joan?

Marie Silverstrim (1:07:47)
Yeah, yeah.

Most valuable poop.

Joan Kanner (1:07:49)
Well, before any, with

...valuable poop, there are so many places we can go. For some people, it's a sensitive subject. We know people who have, who have IBS and we love them and we care about them.

Marie Silverstrim (1:08:03)
Hmm.